3rd winding up order due

[Cricko]

If any of the players we signed this season are on anywhere near £1400 a week ....RM wants shooting.

 

[fbm]

I don't believe he's intentionally screwing the club over and I don't believe he's deliberately taking us to the brink. If he was, he's doing a shoddy job.

A key point for me is that for all the incompetence Martin is accused of, this one simple act - if it were the aim - he has right royally screwed up on time and time again.

On numerous occasions over the last 2-3 years he has had the ability to let the whole lot collapse and has failed to deliever - if that were his aim.

There is an awful lot of hindsight being used here which is very interesting and useful but only if previous mistakes are learned from. They are clearly not.

Football is long past the days when it was the people's game and Roy Keane's observations made a few years ago about the prawn sandwich brigade were scarily prophetic. It costs so much money for the average fan plus kids to attend, that the level of expectation has been raised. People see millions going into the pockets of the top players, most of whom we all slag off when they represent our country because we expect them to be the best players in the world simply because they are the highest paid players in the world.

Look at old football archives from the 50'-60's and you'll see men who look weathered and rugged, playing their hearts out for peanuts with a heavy ball in atrocious conditions in front of crowds twice as large as they generally are now, crammed into rickety death trap stadiums. There was no TV or sponsorship money then, admission prices were low and players were underpaid, but as long as they gave 100% fans were generally happy. Many a football legend has had to sell their medals in order to survive and many have died paupers; careers finished in their 30's, no backup qualifictaions, and the rest of their lives living on whatever past glories they had as their only poension and using their names where possible to gain employment or even just survive.

Now, the stadiums are generally rebuilt and safer, pitches are like bowling greens, players are paid a kings ransom on a weekly basis, their pensions are fantastic, the external money in the game amounts to billions per year and the fans are NOT happy unless their team is winning.

When the team is not doing so well, there are demonstrations and clamours for the managers head. Players are useless, they are abused, the owners are attacked.

What can they do?

The only option open to them is to sack the manager and bring other players in. The first one is easy, the second less so. Players won't just come in because we ask them. They have to agree terms and here we are now dealing with the agents, the real cancer in the game. We can no longer deal all year round, so we have these two "windows" during which, if you try and get early deals done, the club is invariably told by the agent that his client wants to keep his options open, and the nearer the window gets to closure the higher the bargaining power of the agent. The clubs can be effectively held over a barrel... "If you want his signature, then it's £2500 a week, not £2000, and a 3 year deal, not a 2 year one." The club, desperate, is now in a quandry. It has identified a player who can add something to the squad, but instead of a contracted committment of £208,000 they now have to agree to £390,000 or the player does not sign.

So - the prudent thing is not to be held over a barrel and let the deal go.

But the crowds are chanting for the managers head, abusing the board, letters and emails rain down on the press about why the club doesn't get any new players in, they have to speculate to accumulate, we have to compete...

Now some would say that if they were the Chairman in that position then they would remain steadfast and not break the budget. They may even truly, truly believe they would.

What does everyone think we would have said if, going into the CCC we had no new players? In fact, I can remember. Almost everyone on here was calling for signings, new blood, better quality, why doesn't Ron splash the cash?

We got Billy Paynter. A panic buy because the crowd were restless.

Anyone faced with restless natives will do whatever they can to quell the uprising.

From a business point of view, Ron has done everything that it was possiblle to do AT THE TIME to stop us going under. I feel that if he had taken any other course of action, we would have gone under way before now. He could have paid the players and the taxman could have wound us up; we could be at the bottom of the league, still under an embargo and playing the youth team.

If - and this is not a rhetorical question - it transpired that actually by delaying paying the players we could have survived long enough to beat off the taxman, even if it meant a division lower but we would have a decent sized squad again that was pushing for play offs, how many people would have thought it was the wrong thing to do?

It's always very easy to look back and be wise. And whilst Norfoilkshrimp is absolutely correct in what he says SHOULD have happened, it didn't and that doesn't help here. As fans, we can all do our bit to put football in a better position by not subscribing to SKY, ESPN, etc. Then the money in the game would be reduced and the changes would come from the top and filter down.

But that's not going to happen is it?

 

[Cricko]

RM could never let the team go whilst we were still at Roots Hall (Council rules)..when/if we move to FF that is another story all together.

 

[Smiffy]

Let's face it, we will have had to offer players over the odds to come here last summer. Reputation, Bad press etc all to blame.

My bet is a lot of this squad are on miles more than they should be in a League Two side.

So by desperately getting a side together, we have well and truly shot ourselves in the foot financially, again. Another gamble that we had to take though unfortunately. Thank the lords most are only committed to 1 year deals and we can get rid of the deadwood close season.

 

[Norfolkshrimp]

fbm much of what you say is fact but I can't agree with this statement if you are referring to RM "Anyone faced with restless natives will do whatever they can to quell the uprising"

RM has continually stuck two fingers up at the fans of this club and it cannot be said that he has ever tried to quell anything, he really doesn't give a toss. The one time some of the fans did take direct action and went to his house he sent his wife out to speak to them, that says it all really. The blogs could have been written by Alistair Campbell and they exposed his inability to tell the truth.

 

[Beefy]

If any of the players we signed this season are on anywhere near £1400 a week ....RM wants shooting.

I'd be very surprised if Barker and Easton at least weren't on around that. Both experienced Pros from a higher level who I'm sure wouldn't have been short of offers but who chose to come here for the Manager.

 

[EastStandBlue]

I'd be very surprised if Barker and Easton at least weren't on more than that.

Indeed. Individual wages aren't necessarily the problem, it's the collective that'll cause issues. Our problems weren't down to Peter Clarke costing £1m or Adam Barrett being paid £3.5kp/w... It was Peter Clarke and Adam Barrett. And Alan McCormack, Simon Francis, Franck Moussa, Steve Mildenhall, Johnny Herd, Matt Paterson, Scott Spencer etc etc all being paid inflated wages.

For every Barker and Easton earning something akin to £1500 in this squad, there's a Ryan Hall and a Luke Prosser earning comparative peanuts... at least I hope.

 

[TravellingBlue]

Indeed. Individual wages aren't necessarily the problem, it's the collective that'll cause issues. Our problems weren't down to Peter Clarke costing £1m or Adam Barrett being paid £3.5kp/w... It was Peter Clarke and Adam Barrett. And Alan McCormack, Simon Francis, Franck Moussa, Steve Mildenhall, Johnny Herd, Matt Paterson, Scott Spencer etc etc all being paid inflated wages.

For every Barker and Easton earning something akin to £1500 in this squad, there's a Ryan Hall and a Luke Prosser earning comparative peanuts... at least I hope.

It's all relative though. What's inflated wages - who sets the bar? If Barker is on 2k per week and the least paid first team player is on say £500 p/w all the others come somewhere in the middle. Therefore the club must take an average for the 24 players and budget accordingly - if the average amount is not sustainable then we reduce numbers accordingly.

The fact that we have players on the average wage or more not playing is neither here nor there because they are part of the 24, and as such deserve to be paid like every other player - or are you saying that we should only pay higher wages to those who start every game?

If we are not paying players then there is a serious problem with the clubs finances - the wages have been contracted and signed off by RM - therefore are part of the forward load for the club. They are budgetted in our future figures - bottom line is we cannot pay the wages, therefore it has been mis-managed.

I'll tell you something if the Financial Controller of my company didn't have reasons for our lack of cash flow, non payment of wages and winding up orders from the HMRC I'd be knocking him out!!!

 

[WESTY_SUFC]

No one is sticking up for Martin.

The "small bill" that they wanted was still several hundred thousand from what I recall. And we'd still have been more than £1.5m in arrears even if that had been paid. But it couldn't be paid because we didn't have the cash.

The tax bill shouldn't have got into that state and obviously should have been paid every month when due. But the reason why hundreds of businesses are wound up every week and why 60 Clubs now have gone into Administration since 1997 is because when a company is struggling for cash the tax money is there as a pool of working capital which is difficult to resist. Football Clubs in particular are prone to this problem because the penalty for running up a massive tax bill which you then can't pay (ten points) is nowhere near sufficient. Essentially the lack of a decent punishment actively discourages Clubs from living within their means because honest, decent Clubs are being asked to compete on the field with Clubs who spend money that they don't have.

It would appear that we stopped paying tax upon relegation to League One. That season we finished third from bottom but it later came out that several of the sides who finished above us (Coventry, Ipswich, Southampton, Cardiff off the top of my head - I'm sure there were others too) all had major financial problems the next season and either went into Adminsitration to wipe out their tax bill or had to get new owners to pay the accrued amount. Had any one of those Clubs not been using these financial steroids then maybe we would have finished the one place higher that we needed in order to stay up. Had we not bothered to pay the £1m or whatever our total tax bill that year was, maybe we could have signed another few players or had a bigger wage budget to enable us to attract better players.

Ron Martin is a product of a rotten system.

A good fair post and i agree with what you are saying but Mr Martin most certainly does take some responsibility in this. Unfortunately as has been mentioned before his ego is to big to admit any wrong doing and he does not seem to of learnt from his mistakes. Just because it has happened at other clubs doesnt warrant an excuse to happen to mine. He is gambling with SUFC's existance for his target which is a financial gain for him. How dare he claim to be a real SUFC fan as did when things were going well.

 

[Norfolkshrimp]

It's all relative though. What's inflated wages - who sets the bar? If Barker is on 2k per week and the least paid first team player is on say £500 p/w all the others come somewhere in the middle. Therefore the club must take an average for the 24 players and budget accordingly - if the average amount is not sustainable then we reduce numbers accordingly.

The fact that we have players on the average wage or more not playing is neither here nor there because they are part of the 24, and as such deserve to be paid like every other player - or are you saying that we should only pay higher wages to those who start every game?

If we are not paying players then there is a serious problem with the clubs finances - the wages have been contracted and signed off by RM - therefore are part of the forward load for the club. They are budgetted in our future figures - bottom line is we cannot pay the wages, therefore it has been mis-managed.

I'll tell you something if the Financial Controller of my company didn't have reasons for our lack of cash flow, non payment of wages and winding up orders from the HMRC I'd be knocking him out!!!

Exactly !!!!!!!

I don't see how some people can't see this. They remind me of the man himself trying to defend the indefensible and blame everything and everyone whilst failing to take any personal responsibility.

 

[Dick Bate's Protege]

Serious question.

Given that Ron Martin has 'history' with HMRC, which I assume pre-dates even his involvement with SUFC, will we still be treated with the same contempt by said HMRC when he finally sails off into the sunset? Essentially, will his dragging of OUR club through a series court rooms count against us when he is no longer Chairman. If so, that to me would be the most unforgivable thing of all.

 

[Mick]

Indeed. Individual wages aren't necessarily the problem, it's the collective that'll cause issues. Our problems weren't down to Peter Clarke costing £1m or Adam Barrett being paid £3.5kp/w... It was Peter Clarke and Adam Barrett. And Alan McCormack, Simon Francis, Franck Moussa, Steve Mildenhall, Johnny Herd, Matt Paterson, Scott Spencer etc etc all being paid inflated wages.

For every Barker and Easton earning something akin to £1500 in this squad, there's a Ryan Hall and a Luke Prosser earning comparative peanuts... at least I hope.

Why would a player like Matt Paterson, who we brought in at a time when we had to sacrifice our League One survival by selling Barnard in a fire sale, be on inflated wages? Now that would be really irresponsible.

 

[united we stand]

The below may be of interest.

Either Ron or Tara is on record as saying that we budgeted for 6000 per match (we even quote this figure on the OS re marketing the advertising hoarding). I am fairly sure it is ROn, but I can't find it at the moment
According to the OS our average home gate is 4295 (two matches do not have figures , so this average is not 100% correct )
Thats a shortage of 1705 supporters per match
over 17 home league matches so far that a shortage of 28938 supporters
at £10 a ticket thats £289,380
At £15 a ticket thats £434,070

I also thought that Ron said that we had budgeted for a cup run better than we had.

Based on the above its actually a wonder that we have lasted this long !

 

[Firestorm]

IIRC the echo article said the wage bill was around 1.3M rising to 1.8M if management etc was taken into account

1.3M equates to 20 @ 1100 pw Including the employers NI

it does depend on whether that was the annual projection though, as that will take into account the wages paid for the loanees, which Timlin and Simpson certainly will not be cheap and I doubt that the QPR lad would have been piad peanuts

 

[Norfolkshrimp]

I also thought that Ron said that we had budgeted for a cup run better than we had.

A cup run should never be included in any budget, if we go out in the first round away after deducting travelling expenses etc. from our tiny share of gate receipts we would probably be at a loss.

 

[Cricko]

IIRC the echo article said the wage bill was around 1.3M rising to 1.8M if management etc was taken into account

1.3M equates to 20 @ 1100 pw Including the employers NI

it does depend on whether that was the annual projection though, as that will take into account the wages paid for the loanees, which Timlin and Simpson certainly will not be cheap and I doubt that the QPR lad would have been piad peanuts

Talking of loanees reminded me....we are still paying, or have not paid all yet for Mvoto.

 

[WESTY_SUFC]

A cup run should never be included in any budget, if we go out in the first round away after deducting travelling expenses etc. from our tiny share of gate receipts we would probably be at a loss.

Exactly. Budgetting for a cup run is insane!

 

[Beefy]

Exactly !!!!!!!

I don't see how some people can't see this. They remind me of the man himself trying to defend the indefensible and blame everything and everyone whilst failing to take any personal responsibility.

I don't see how you don't see that everyone sees this. You're preaching to the converted. We all know that Ron Martin has made massive mistakes. I doubt that there's a single person on Shrimperzone who would say otherwise.

 

[TravellingBlue]

Can I just say that I am thoroughly enjoying this thought provoking thread!:thumbsup:

 

[Beefy]

Can I just say that I am thoroughly enjoying this thought provoking thread!:thumbsup:

I'm glad you've enjoyed it. We'll do it again in a few days :winking: