3rd winding up order due

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

I'll ask the question again, why are we paying higher wages than some league one clubs?

Cost of living around the S/E of England is far higher than many other places ???

 

[Norfolkshrimp]

As I've pointed out, this is the only month this season that I've seen us incur the wrath of HMRC, this being the same month that Sainsbury's have allegedly held back on finance until the development plans were approved. Had that finance come in, then I'm fairly sure HMRC would've been paid and nobody would have been any the wiser.

This is my whole point on the issue of budgeting. You should always assume the worst in business and allow for unforeseen circumstances, if the Sainsbury's payment was for example due to be paid to us in January then we should have already budgeted what funds we did have WITHOUT the January payment being taken into account.

We should have budgeted until March giving us a 2 month cushion, it's not that hard it just means keeping outgoings lower and spreading the cash over an extra 2 months.

How much did Widdrington cost us while he was here ? Could we not have done without him and utilised Duncan more to assist PS or even Couglan ? Again it comes down to poor management of AVAILABLE funds, we haven't had zero funds we have just once again misused them and allowed things to go to the wire.

 

[Beefy]

Sorry for repeating myself here but if Martin paid the small tax bills which the HMRC wanted last year rather than try to bully them then they would of not demanded the whole outstanding debt at once am i not correct? This is HIS fault. Could one of the people sticking up for Martin please give me an opinion on this or do you agree?

ps East Stand Blue. How do you know HMRC aren't determined to take him down or is that your opinion? Im not disagreeing, just interested.

No one is sticking up for Martin.

The "small bill" that they wanted was still several hundred thousand from what I recall. And we'd still have been more than £1.5m in arrears even if that had been paid. But it couldn't be paid because we didn't have the cash.

The tax bill shouldn't have got into that state and obviously should have been paid every month when due. But the reason why hundreds of businesses are wound up every week and why 60 Clubs now have gone into Administration since 1997 is because when a company is struggling for cash the tax money is there as a pool of working capital which is difficult to resist. Football Clubs in particular are prone to this problem because the penalty for running up a massive tax bill which you then can't pay (ten points) is nowhere near sufficient. Essentially the lack of a decent punishment actively discourages Clubs from living within their means because honest, decent Clubs are being asked to compete on the field with Clubs who spend money that they don't have.

It would appear that we stopped paying tax upon relegation to League One. That season we finished third from bottom but it later came out that several of the sides who finished above us (Coventry, Ipswich, Southampton, Cardiff off the top of my head - I'm sure there were others too) all had major financial problems the next season and either went into Adminsitration to wipe out their tax bill or had to get new owners to pay the accrued amount. Had any one of those Clubs not been using these financial steroids then maybe we would have finished the one place higher that we needed in order to stay up. Had we not bothered to pay the £1m or whatever our total tax bill that year was, maybe we could have signed another few players or had a bigger wage budget to enable us to attract better players.

Ron Martin is a product of a rotten system.

 

[Beefy]

This is my whole point on the issue of budgeting. You should always assume the worst in business and allow for unforeseen circumstances, if the Sainsbury's payment was for example due to be paid to us in January then we should have already budgeted what funds we did have WITHOUT the January payment being taken into account.

We should have budgeted until March giving us a 2 month cushion, it's not that hard it just means keeping outgoings lower and spreading the cash over an extra 2 months.

How can we create this buffer when our income doesn't come even close to our outgoings? How can we put money aside for a rainy day when we can't afford to pay the wagebill without borrowing huge sums from Sainsburys?

We have been keeping outgoings low and spreading available cash. That's why people are getting made redundant every couple of months and why Tilly is rumoured to be far from the only person still waiting on money.

 

[EastStandBlue]

This is my whole point on the issue of budgeting. You should always assume the worst in business and allow for unforeseen circumstances, if the Sainsbury's payment was for example due to be paid to us in January then we should have already budgeted what funds we did have WITHOUT the January payment being taken into account.

We should have budgeted until March giving us a 2 month cushion, it's not that hard it just means keeping outgoings lower and spreading the cash over an extra 2 months.

How much did Widdrington cost us while he was here ? Could we not have done without him and utilised Duncan more to assist PS or even Couglan ? Again it comes down to poor management of AVAILABLE funds, we haven't had zero funds we have just once again misused them and allowed things to go to the wire.

Where do we get the money for this two month buffer? We've needed the Sainsbury's cash as and when it's due and have used it as such. I'm not privy to any details of the Sainsbury's agreements, but I don't think they'd be particularly inclined to be giving us cash to use as a buffer or contingency plan or at all if we're budgeting to run ourselves without it.

It's easy to slam Widdrington's appointment in hindsight, but at the time many were pleased to see him onboard. He had a good reputation at Salisbury, having run the club under a similar constraints, and has a good working knowledge of the non-league scene that we undoubtedly tapped to bring in Hall and Clohessy, two of our better performers. As it happens, his approach to management just didn't sit well with players at the club and they've certainly played with more freedom without him. Widdrington wouldn't have been on an extensive wage at all I'd imagine.

 

[Norfolkshrimp]

How can we create this buffer when our income doesn't come even close to our outgoings? How can we put money aside for a rainy day when we can't afford to pay the wagebill without borrowing huge sums from Sainsburys?

We have been keeping outgoings low and spreading available cash. That's why people are getting made redundant every couple of months and why Tilly is rumoured to be far from the only person still waiting on money.

It's not putting money aside for a rainy day it's budgeting with what was left over of the Sainsbury cash and accurately forecasting our income from gate receipts etc. Why won't you accept that the budget clearly hasn't been set at the correct level and adhered to ?

Again Tilson's money should be included in any budget, RM just lives in fantasy land, he makes up the figures as he goes. Are you seriously telling me we can't produce a profit and loss forecast that's 95% accurate after everything we've been through recently ?

If we were hovering just above the relegation zone because the squad was a bit weaker or we finish mid table but use up all our 9 lives and get wound up which would you prefer ?

 

[TravellingBlue]

I'd say that's a pretty fair assessment, but with the qualification that Sainsbury's missing a milestone payment isn't that much of an issue (assuming we have a written agreement in place with them), it's us missing a milestone that's the potential problem.


I truly believe that we are solely dependant on the milestone payments from Sainsburys. We have obviously missed milestone payments to our players, staff and the HMRC all over the place. My biggest worry is that for whatever reason Sainsbury's withhold the due milestone payment and we have absoluely no cash to pay the outstanding debts or service the winding up order from the HRMC.

The transfer embargo won't matter then because we won't have a club anymore!

 

[Norfolkshrimp]

Where do we get the money for this two month buffer?

We've already had it and once again misused it.

It's easy to slam Widdrington's appointment in hindsight, but at the time many were pleased to see him onboard. He had a good reputation at Salisbury, having run the club under a similar constraints, and has a good working knowledge of the non-league scene that we undoubtedly tapped to bring in Hall and Clohessy, two of our better performers. As it happens, his approach to management just didn't sit well with players at the club and they've certainly played with more freedom without him. Widdrington wouldn't have been on an extensive wage at all I'd imagine.

Again you're fabricating quotes, who's slamming Widdrington's appointment and the mans performance as a coach ? It's clear to deduce from my posts my gripe is we couldn't afford him. How long was he here and what did that cost in wages ? £30k, more, less ? Who knows but whatever it was that could have stayed in the coffers and now be used towards the tax bill.

Why can't you accept the extent of the mismanagement of this business ?

It's clearly a waste of time trying to debate with you because you just invent things that people have supposedly said to try and score a point, you're deluded in my opinion. Thankfully the posts are here for all to see that you make up quotes.

 

[BrettieAngell]

I
If we were hovering just above the relegation zone because the squad was a bit weaker or we finish mid table but use up all our 9 lives and get wound up which would you prefer ?

A good point, clearly the budget for this season hasn't been handled very well.

 

[Beefy]

It's not putting money aside for a rainy day it's budgeting with what was left over of the Sainsbury cash and accurately forecasting our income from gate receipts etc. Why won't you accept that the budget clearly hasn't been set at the correct level and adhered to ?

But that is what we ARE doing! The funds are being drip-fed through to us in order to cover our projected deficit. The winding up orders and non-payment of wages were caused because the funds which we'd budgeted to receive were held back. We can't come up with an effective budget that doesn't include the Sainsburys cash which is in the least bit competative because our income is so low and would without doubt drop further if we had a 500k wage budget and were bottom of the league.

If we were hovering just above the relegation zone because the squad was a bit weaker or we finish mid table but use up all our 9 lives and get wound up which would you prefer ?

I agree. But almost a decade of posting on Shrimperzone tell me that I'd be in a real minority. It was obvious that we were in a real mess at the end of 08/09 and yet people on here were still demanding that hundreds of thousands of pounds be spent on the likes of Theo Robinson.

 

[Sleaford Shrimper]

Having read through this and many other threads on the club's finances, it appears that, with regret, HMRC are absolutely correct in contending that SUFC is not a viable business. Whatever the historical or present reasons may be, the club does not generate sufficient sustainable income to meet its essential outgoings. The Sainsburys money is a finite sum and not a long-term sustainable income; when it's gone, it's gone. The club's only current regular income stream is from gate receipts and, at their current level, they will not sustain even the most pared-back essential outgoings of the football club. If it can be brought to fruition, the Fosset's Farm development would potentially deliver a long-term sustainable income from the tenants of the retail and leisure aspects of the development but the HMRC must view that as pure speculation and must be as aware as the rest of us that the more of the Sainsbury's money that is being used now to keep the football club in existence, the less chance there will be of sufficient capital being available to complete the Fosset's Farm development on which the club's future viability depends.

 

[Holy Joe]

It's not putting money aside for a rainy day it's budgeting with what was left over of the Sainsbury cash and accurately forecasting our income from gate receipts etc. Why won't you accept that the budget clearly hasn't been set at the correct level and adhered to ?

I think you are assuming we've received all the Sainsburys money upfront - I don't think that is the case we are receiving monthly(?) payments - when they skip one of these it causes us problems. Accurately forecasting money for gate receipts was abit difficult in Dec as well with the snow and postponed games. The other point other people have raised about wages being too high and reducing wages and hence quality of player. With most of football running at a loss what is needed is for all clubs to reduce wages - hence the quality of player will not change.

 

[EastStandBlue]

Again you're fabricating quotes, who's slamming Widdrington ? It's clear to deduce from my posts my gripe is we couldn't afford him. How long was he here and what did that cost in wages ? £30k, more, less ? Who knows but whatever it was that could have stayed in the coffers and now be used towards the tax bill.

Why can't you accept the extent of the mismanagement of this business ?

It's clearly a waste of time trying to debate with you because you just invent things that people have supposedly said to try and score a point, you're deluded in my opinion. Thankfully the posts are here for all to see that you make up quotes.

Who's fabricating quotes now? I didn't say you'd slammed Widdrington, I said you'd slammed his appointment which you have done, claiming it to be a waste of money. Again, this is all easy to do with the benefit of hindsight but the vast majority on here were questioning the use of Sturrock without an assistant, and his dismissal is an example of us rebudgeting in order to reduce our expenses.

You're entitled to think I'm deluded, I quite frankly couldn't give a ****... I think you've set out with an agenda and can't see the wood for the trees.

 

[Norfolkshrimp]

But that is what we ARE doing!

Sorry I can't agree, if we knew the next stage payment from Sainsburys was due in January then you draw up your forecast to run over into early March in case as has occurred, there is a delay, it's prudent and professional, neither of those words can be used to describe RM's management of this business.

 

[Norfolkshrimp]

I think you are assuming we've received all the Sainsburys money upfront - I don't think that is the case we are receiving monthly(?) payments - when they skip one of these it causes us problems. Accurately forecasting money for gate receipts was abit difficult in Dec as well with the snow and postponed games. The other point other people have raised about wages being too high and reducing wages and hence quality of player. With most of football running at a loss what is needed is for all clubs to reduce wages - hence the quality of player will not change.

No I haven't assumed that, my point is RM should budget for circumstances which may lead to a Sainsbury payment being late. He knows full well that HMRC won't stand for anymore of his BS so why gamble on everything coming in on time ?

I bet he didn't even take the possibility of bad weather into account which has resulted in late income of gate receipts.

Simply put the bloke is clueless and his ego seems to be more important to him than the businesses he's involved in.

 

[Holy Joe]

I don't think a sensible business budget is a worst case scenario. A sensible budget would be a base case, e.g., games played as scheduled and payments from Sainsburys paid on time (unless you know you're not going to meet some conditions on the payment). Now I think you probably should have some funds as a contingency but for us unfortuantely the contingency fund was used up along time ago - and we haven't had the cashflow since to replenish it.

 

[Beefy]

Sorry I can't agree, if we knew the next stage payment from Sainsburys was due in January then you draw up your forecast to run over into early March in case as has occurred, there is a delay, it's prudent and professional, neither of those words can be used to describe RM's management of this business.

The Club are trying to crisis manage a chronic cashflow shortage. There's no room for budgeting, there's no room for looking beyond the next tax bill or the next payroll date. We are utterly, completely, totally dependant on the money from Sainsburys coming in on a regular basis. You can't budget for what happens if that money doesn't come in because if it doesn't come in then the whole thing collapses. The Club are essentially living month to month, just like thousands of busiensses are and millions of people are.

 

[Norfolkshrimp]

The Club are trying to crisis manage a chronic cashflow shortage. There's no room for budgeting, there's no room for looking beyond the next tax bill or the next payroll date. We are utterly, completely, totally dependant on the money from Sainsburys coming in on a regular basis. You can't budget for what happens if that money doesn't come in because if it doesn't come in then the whole thing collapses. The Club are essentially living month to month, just like thousands of busiensses are and millions of people are.

We need admin then, let's have another 6 points from the players and go for admin, **** it it's not going to get any better the way things are being done.

 

[EastStandBlue]

We need admin then, let's have another 6 points from the players and go for admin, **** it it's not going to get any better the way things are being done.

What would admin achieve? Our debts at the moment are, no matter how you describe them, minimal in comparison to what they have been and we'd be exchanging 10 points to resolve little debt. RM would still hold the cards to our future and we'd be no better off for it. The time for administration has been and gone.

 

[Norfolkshrimp]

What would admin achieve? Our debts at the moment are, no matter how you describe them, minimal in comparison to what they have been and we'd be exchanging 10 points to resolve little debt. RM would still hold the cards to our future and we'd be no better off for it. The time for administration has been and gone.

It may unravel the web of companies and if the administrator can prove deliberate wrong doing on RM"s part we could possibly get rid of him once and for all ?

Do you consider him a fit and proper person to be running our club or any business for that matter ?