Would you support this policy?

[Hotman]

He is not necessarily subsidising me or you. He may be helping the child that needs a life saving operation or paying for equipment for the armed forces.

for the amount of tax i pay i'm subsidising the whole ****ing lot, and half of somalia.

Personally think that tax should be a flat rate across the board, with no artificial splitting of national insurance / vat / etc , and no splitting of tax credits and so on.

i know this is overly simplifying things, but it seems to me that all tax revenue could be put in a pot, added up, and divided amongst total reported income. Then come up with a one rate that fits all. Why should the proportion of my earnings that get clobbered at 41% subsidise some lazy **** who is happy to work in mcdonalds?

 

[steveo]

perhaps if we took Firestorms theory a bit further we could draw a line at say 20 grand and tax anyone who earns more than that till they have the same nett pay as the 20 grand man. Then all the high earners will have fulfilled their moral obligations to the people who can't be bothered to work harder.

 

[stoy_redstar]

Benefits should be a safety net for thows who unfortunately for one reason or another find themselves incapable of working.There are lots of jobs out there for people who truly want to work! I work with loads of european people who do all the menial jobs that lazy brits would not get out of bed for. Then you might say ,"ahh but they dont have the expensive living costs that we do, and we cannot work for that kind of money ".... its bollox, total bollox. I.M.H.O. As a country we should stop all benefits after six months to anyone who does not have a valid reason why they cannot work. We should offer vouchers for childrens food an clothing but thats it. It makes me sick the amount of abuse our benefit system gets. In fact I would go as far as to say that anyone who smokes or drinks alchohol should not be able to claim benefits until they provide satisfactory evidence that they have given up both. Stopping peoples cushty benefits would soon get the long term unemployed back to work, it would be either that or starve, harsh yes but something as to be done!

half agree. few years back whilst living in thurrock, one of my neighbours was living in a rented property for which the council was paying for, he was 'out of work' due to 'bad back' whilst driving a 3yr old Merc at the time. anyway, he got caught working for cash in hand, aparently was being followed for over a month. Result: 500 quid fine, and none of his benifits got stopped. makes me think rest of us are mugs for actually working.
problem at the moment is that due to the economical situation the country is, and with a lot of businesses around here cutting staff numbers or closing down completely there is going to be a lot of hard working, honest people out of work. and whilst normally these kind of people should find another job without a problem, there is now 1000's of equally hard working poles etc...who are happy with a cr@ppy wage and living out of a suitcase few months at a time so they can take some money back home

 

[Benfleet A1]

He is not necessarily subsidising me or you. He may be helping the child that needs a life saving operation or paying for equipment for the armed forces.

Which is sadly lacking on both fronts.
What was that old socialist saying. All men are equal, it's just some are more equal than others.

 

[Firestorm]

perhaps if we took Firestorms theory a bit further we could draw a line at say 20 grand and tax anyone who earns more than that till they have the same nett pay as the 20 grand man. Then all the high earners will have fulfilled their moral obligations to the people who can't be bothered to work harder.

Alternatively we could encourage the work harder ethic by abolishing paid holiday or sick pay, I mean, if you can't be bothered to put the effort in to go to work, why should you get paid

 

[steveo]

abolishing paid holiday or sick pay

Interesting point. We have a bloke off sick at the moment with “depression”. This coincided with the CSA contacting him about the 4 children he has from different mothers to whom he has never contributed a penny and now they want a large chunk of his wages.

We have to pay Statuary Sick Pay at the rate of about 75 quid a week, for up to 28 weeks. If during that time he comes back to work for even 1 day, he can start another 28 week sick period. However, his sick note has run out and he hasn’t been back yet this week or told me he is still sick.

It makes it very difficult for me as the bloke who is temporarily doing his job wants to stay full time but I can’t make a commitment to him till I can get rid of the other idiot. (The temp bloke you be surprised to know, is not English - Shockhorror!)

 

[Desert Shrimper]

(The temp bloke you be surprised to know, is not English - Shockhorror!)

Wow Steveo - welcome to 2008, hope you like it and stay here......:)

 

[Firestorm]

Interesting point. We have a bloke off sick at the moment with “depression”. This coincided with the CSA contacting him about the 4 children he has from different mothers to whom he has never contributed a penny and now they want a large chunk of his wages.

We have to pay Statuary Sick Pay at the rate of about 75 quid a week, for up to 28 weeks. If during that time he comes back to work for even 1 day, he can start another 28 week sick period. However, his sick note has run out and he hasn’t been back yet this week or told me he is still sick.

It makes it very difficult for me as the bloke who is temporarily doing his job wants to stay full time but I can’t make a commitment to him till I can get rid of the other idiot. (The temp bloke you be surprised to know, is not English - Shockhorror!)

I know what you mean, there are quite a number of people who will systematically abuse the welfare state for what ever they can get. Thats why I previously mentioned tightening up the checks on benefits etc. but society as a whole should not be penalised due to the misdemeanours of the minority.

Taxation is used for many many other things apart from paying social security benefits. it provides hospitals , roads etc, things society as a whole benefit from. I don't think it is particularly unfair for individuals who are getting a very good standard of living from the society (and the bottom line is we all pay for everyone elses wages in one way , shape or form) , to put a bit more back in. I am not advocating a return to the 95% upper tax bracket days but slightly higher tax band for earnings over , say 100k.

 

[Hotman]

I know what you mean, there are quite a number of people who will systematically abuse the welfare state for what ever they can get. Thats why I previously mentioned tightening up the checks on benefits etc. but society as a whole should not be penalised due to the misdemeanours of the minority.

Taxation is used for many many other things apart from paying social security benefits. it provides hospitals , roads etc, things society as a whole benefit from. I don't think it is particularly unfair for individuals who are getting a very good standard of living from the society (and the bottom line is we all pay for everyone elses wages in one way , shape or form) , to put a bit more back in. I am not advocating a return to the 95% upper tax bracket days but slightly higher tax band for earnings over , say 100k.

Surely taxation based on percentages rather than flat rate mean that higher earners are putting more in, in fact they are contributing to society in exactly the same proportion as they are enjoying the benefits of their hard work, that's fair to me! There's no need to punishthem by having a punitive percentage rate once you work hard enough!

 

[steveo]

I am not advocating a return to the 95% upper tax bracket days but slightly higher tax band for earnings over , say 100k.

Which I think would still be unfair, so let’s agree to disagree on this one and bring on the next debate, now should we sort out the problem of Irans uranium enrichment programme with a well aimed nuclear weapon................

 

[Winkle]

Did anyone catch the Govermont comment yesterday about stopping european immigrants claiming benefits after four weeks in this country... they are now raising it to 6 months, whoopie do!!! Sorry and all that but if you cant work, why should I and the rest of society have to keep you? If you are not fit to work then perhaps you should have thought about that before you came here. We are the only country (as far as I know) who's system is open to utter utter abuse. No wonder so many immigrants are prepared to more or less kill them sevles to get here when we are handing out banknotes for free.

 

[steveo]

Be careful Winkle, this is about the point where you get branded a racist and told its the immigrants that are keeping our country going – unless of course MK is having a lay in today.

 

[Firestorm]

Which I think would still be unfair, so let’s agree to disagree on this one and bring on the next debate, now should we sort out the problem of Irans uranium enrichment programme with a well aimed nuclear weapon................

Interesting , Should we deprive other countries of 1) the right to have what we have already got 2) the right to have electricity without adding to greenhouse gases and global warming 3) Something to stop the Yanks piling in there once they decide they need a bit more oil.

Regional aside here, Israel ? Is this an example of immigrants not adopting the customs of their new continent and trying to dominate an area to which they are relatively new , a Centruries old race trying to reclaim land and culture which is rightfully theirs or a nation trying to dominate others and being condoned by an international community wracked with guilt over the treatment of their forefathers ?

 

[Winkle]

Be careful Winkle, this is about the point where you get branded a racist and told its the immigrants that are keeping our country going – unless of course MK is having a lay in today.

Quite the opposite infact! Having seen first hand how hard the majority of east europeans work( for minimum wages) it puts alot of british workers to shame. I have no problem with anyone who contributes to our society regardless of colour or creed, its just the fact that if in my opinnion, " If you dont pay into the pot, what right have you got to take any out"?
My wages are are 49% less than they were a year ago but the thing is I could never go on the dole or anything as to me that would be a failure. In the future personnel circumstances might dictate to me that I might need help financially but while I am still healthy, I WILL ALWAYS WORK. Like I stated previously, benefits should be a safety net for everyone who for one reason or another are incapable of working but sadly for thousands its a lifestyle, one of which they are reluctant to give up. I work with a Hungarian guy at the moment who has lived here for four years, He is a technician like me (more qualified actually). His sole aim is to earn enough money to bulid a house back home and go back and live there because wages in his country are so poor. Now you are probably thinking "Europeans Coming over here and taking our jobs" but I dont have a problem with it at all as he is paying into the system and working hard. The people who moan about not finding descent work I.M.O are not looking hard enough or dont want to work!.

 

[Firestorm]

Did anyone catch the Govermont comment yesterday about stopping european immigrants claiming benefits after four weeks in this country... they are now raising it to 6 months, whoopie do!!! Sorry and all that but if you cant work, why should I and the rest of society have to keep you? If you are not fit to work then perhaps you should have thought about that before you came here. We are the only country (as far as I know) who's system is open to utter utter abuse. No wonder so many immigrants are prepared to more or less kill them sevles to get here when we are handing out banknotes for free.

European immigrants are not "prepared to more or less kill them sevles to get here" They do not need to . The EU free movement of labour ((Article 39 of the EC Treaty) enables them to move amongst member states.
http://www.euractiv.com/en/enlargement/free-movement-labour-eu-27/article-129648 does have details of those EU countries who are campaigning for restrictions / no restrictions.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Be careful Winkle, this is about the point where you get branded a racist and told its the immigrants that are keeping our country going – unless of course MK is having a lay in today.

No I've decided to let Firestorm rip apart your extreme right wing bias for a change.

 

[Firestorm]

No I've decided to let Firestorm rip apart your extreme right wing bias for a change.

be fair here MK. The previous debate did show "capitalist tendencies" but there was nothing worthy of anything other than healthy debate in their content. nothing could have been deemed to be remotely racist (unless bone idle Chav has been declared an independant state)

 

[Winkle]

European immigrants are not "prepared to more or less kill them sevles to get here" They do not need to . The EU free movement of labour ((Article 39 of the EC Treaty) enables them to move amongst member states.
http://www.euractiv.com/en/enlargement/free-movement-labour-eu-27/article-129648 does have details of those EU countries who are campaigning for restrictions / no restrictions.

Ok. point taken, perhaps in thinking european I was actually meaning North African, like the 80 or so last week that were drowned in a boat just off of Gibralter or the poor afghan stowaway who froze to death in the wheel assembly of a 747 recently.

 

[steveo]

As opposed to your left wing nonsense of course

 

[Firestorm]

Ok. point taken, perhaps in thinking european I was actually meaning North African, like the 80 or so last week that were drowned in a boat just off of Gibralter or the poor afghan stowaway who froze to death in the wheel assembly of a 747 recently.

They'd be asylum seekers then


Sorry to be pedantic ;)