Who will be team captain?

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (shrimpboy @ May 17 2004,19:19)]Bl**dy hell, Matt! What's with all the stats!

The best way to disprove an argument is to do it with facts, not clever theories.

FBM argued that the consistent factor in our mediocre midfield displays over the last 5 years is Kevin Maher.

I sought to prove, instead, that the consisent factor in our mediocre midfield displays over the last 5 years is not Kevin Maher, but the sub-standard partners for Kevin Maher.

It is up to the good people of SZ to decide whether my proposition or FBM's is the more accurate.

I would argue, in my favour, that now that Maher has got a good midifield playing alongside him, the team has definitely started to move forward and look like a good outfit.

There you have it...

Matt

 

[fbm]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ May 17 2004,20:25)]

Quote[/b] (shrimpboy @ May 17 2004,19:19)]Bl**dy hell, Matt! What's with all the stats!

The best way to disprove an argument is to do it with facts, not clever theories.

FBM argued that the consistent factor in our mediocre midfield displays over the last 5 years is Kevin Maher.

I sought to prove, instead, that the consisent factor in our mediocre midfield displays over the last 5 years is not Kevin Maher, but the sub-standard partners for Kevin Maher.

It is up to the good people of SZ to decide whether my proposition or FBM's is the more accurate.

I would argue, in my favour, that now that Maher has got a good midifield playing alongside him, the team has definitely started to move forward and look like a good outfit.

There you have it...

Matt

Gauntlet well and truly thrown down then Matt.

Well, in a strange sort of way, your argument for Kevin Maher actually backs up mine against.

I shall explain.

Let me first state that I totally agree with your comments regarding previous midfields, the majority of which have contained some really dodgy players. Maher has been one of the most consistent performers over the last 3/4 seasons, and as I said earlier, previous managers have made him the kingpin and built teams around him.

This is probably because his midfield partners were not quite up to his standard. But now, as you say, we have much more talent in the middle of the park.

So should a team still be built around him?

Definitely not. He is no longer the main man in the midfield. I would say that falls on Gower, who is by far the most creative of our midfield. He is not as industrious as Kev, but Gower has laid on or scored more goals this season than Kev has in his whole career.

Even in the centre, Bentley is more box-to-box than Maher, and has scored more in half a season than Kev has in a whole season.

Jay Smith is a different prospect altogether, and to be honest when he was on top of his game before his injury he was getting goals, winning MOTM awards regularly and making Maher look ordinary.

Fullarton, when he was here, was more vocal and encouraging than Maher, although I don't think we ever saw the best of him, and of course now never will.

So, in amongst the ordinary midfields of the past, Kev has been the kingpin. He has supplied corners and free kicks that have led to goals.

But then he has taken 90% of them. And most of them are either woeful or predictable.

He has certainly given 110% every game, I cannot take that away from him.

But I guess the point is that in the poor or average midfields of the past he failed to create chances, score goals, or lay that incisive pass inside the full back for the wingers or forwards to chase.

And now, in a talented and promising midfield, he STILL fails to create chances, score goals, or lay that incisive pass inside the full back etc etc.

So what's changed?

His teammates. His game is the same, and the end product from his play is unchanged. It's just that others are now doing the jobs that others should have been doing before and didn't.

That to me does not underline an argument to keep Kev as a kingpin in this much more promising team.

As a captain, my views on him are well known I would imagine. He leads by example when the going is good; when it gets tough he cannot rally the troops.

Since Christmas his form has been excellent - the best form since he has been here, undoubtably. Kev the player I would be sorry to see leave. But Kev the captain and kingpin? I now think we have more - and better - options.

In a team containing Gower, Constantine, Smith and Dudfield, why build a team around anyone? There are enough personnel with sufficient diversification of assets and abilities to cause most Div 3 teams a lot of problems next year. Grimsby will be tough, otherwise I don't think we need fear any of the relegated teams.

Chester and Shrewsbury will be on highs and I would imagine will have good seasons next year.

But otherwise I predict that we will be up there, Kev or no Kev. And that is because of his teammates, not him.

 

[MightyShrimper]

Quote[/b] (fbm @ May 17 2004,22:44)]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ May 17 2004,20:25)]

Quote[/b] (shrimpboy @ May 17 2004,19:19)]Bl**dy hell, Matt! What's with all the stats!

The best way to disprove an argument is to do it with facts, not clever theories.

FBM argued that the consistent factor in our mediocre midfield displays over the last 5 years is Kevin Maher.

I sought to prove, instead, that the consisent factor in our mediocre midfield displays over the last 5 years is not Kevin Maher, but the sub-standard partners for Kevin Maher.

It is up to the good people of SZ to decide whether my proposition or FBM's is the more accurate.

I would argue, in my favour, that now that Maher has got a good midifield playing alongside him, the team has definitely started to move forward and look like a good outfit.

There you have it...

Matt

Gauntlet well and truly thrown down then Matt.

Well, in a strange sort of way, your argument for Kevin Maher actually backs up mine against.

I shall explain.

Let me first state that I totally agree with your comments regarding previous midfields, the majority of which have contained some really dodgy players.  Maher has been one of the most consistent performers over the last 3/4 seasons, and as I said earlier, previous managers have made him the kingpin and built teams around him.

This is probably because his midfield partners were not quite up to his standard.  But now, as you say, we have much more talent in the middle of the park.

So should a team still be built around him?

Definitely not.  He is no longer the main man in the midfield.  I would say that falls on Gower, who is by far the most creative of our midfield.  He is not as industrious as Kev, but Gower has laid on or scored more goals this season than Kev has in his whole career.

Even in the centre, Bentley is more box-to-box than Maher, and has scored more in half a season than Kev has in a whole season.

Jay Smith is a different prospect altogether, and to be honest when he was on top of his game before his injury he was getting goals, winning MOTM awards regularly and making Maher look ordinary.

Fullarton, when he was here, was more vocal and encouraging than Maher, although I don't think we ever saw the best of him, and of course now never will.

So, in amongst the ordinary midfields of the past, Kev has been the kingpin.  He has supplied corners and free kicks that have led to goals.

But then he has taken 90% of them.  And most of them are either woeful or predictable.

He has certainly given 110% every game, I cannot take that away from him.

But I guess the point is that in the poor or average midfields of the past he failed to create chances, score goals, or lay that incisive pass inside the full back for the wingers or forwards to chase.

And now, in a talented and promising midfield, he STILL fails to create chances, score goals, or lay that incisive pass inside the full back etc etc.

So what's changed?

His teammates.  His game is the same, and the end product from his play is unchanged.  It's just that others are now doing the jobs that others should have been doing before and didn't.

That to me does not underline an argument to keep Kev as a kingpin in this much more promising team.

As a captain, my views on him are well known I would imagine.  He leads by example when the going is good; when it gets tough he cannot rally the troops.

Since Christmas his form has been excellent - the best form since he has been here, undoubtably.  Kev the player I would be sorry to see leave.  But Kev the captain and kingpin?  I now think we have more - and better - options.

In a team containing Gower, Constantine, Smith and Dudfield, why build a team around anyone?  There are enough personnel with sufficient diversification of assets and abilities to cause most Div 3 teams a lot of problems next year.  Grimsby will be tough, otherwise I don't think we need fear any of the relegated teams.

Chester and Shrewsbury will be on highs and I would imagine will have good seasons next year.

But otherwise I predict that we will be up there, Kev or no Kev.  And that is because of his teammates, not him.

Well said and Totaly agree. We have a good squad here now and we have good players and shouldnt fear anybody.

 

[nattrazz]

now we have signed the eagle back i think that he should be made the new captain provided maher or warren leaves

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (fbm @ May 17 2004,22:44)]Gauntlet well and truly thrown down then Matt.

Cogently argued, sir. Almost persuasive.

My reservations:

1. Gower's long-term commitment to the club (read the LDV Final Magazine... his ambition clearly extends beyond Roots Hall).

2. Jay Smith's ability to stay injury-free.

3. The fact that Mark Bentley remains unproven and untested at this level.

4. The fact that, even when all the other pieces of the jigsaw have been there (Bentley, Gower, Constantine & Pettefer away at Huddersfield, for example), we still have not convinced when Maher has not been there.

5. The demonstration by Maher that, when he puts his mind to it, he is head and shoulders above perhaps everyone at the club in terms of ability. His performance away at Col Ewe in the LDV Southern Final remains one of the most brilliant performances by a Southend midfielder that I've had the privilege to watch in the last 13 years.

Maher has shown determination, application and endeavour in spades since the dark days of the Roots Hall boo-boys in his first season at the club. Finally, in the last season, we're beginning to witness the ability of Kevin Maher in his pomp - in the best form of his career perhaps.

And yet, somehow, it's not a disaster if he leaves...? Sorry, don't agree with you there. In recent years, it has been the case that players have begun to look good at Roots Hall, only to b*gger off and really win the plaudits elsewhere - Rammell, Thomson, Margetson, Conlon and Tinkler jump readily to mind.

How about we hold on to players whose talent is beginning to ripen (notably Constantine & Maher), rather than letting other clubs reap a bountiful harvest...?

Matt

 

[Mad Cyril]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ May 17 2004,20:25)]The best way to disprove an argument is to do it with facts, not clever theories.

Unless you are defending OJ Simpson.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (Mad Cyril @ May 18 2004,11:51)]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ May 17 2004,20:25)]The best way to disprove an argument is to do it with facts, not clever theories.

Unless you are defending OJ Simpson.

I see you've been familiarising yourself with US Criminal Law, Matt...

 

[fbm]

Quote[/b] ]1. Gower's long-term commitment to the club (read the LDV Final Magazine... his ambition clearly extends beyond Roots Hall).

As every promising Div 3 player should. However, if we were to scale the league and get back to Div 1, then maybe that ambition would be achieved? Even if we only have him for another season though, he would still be the major contributor. I would be far more concerned over him leaving than Maher.

Quote[/b] ]2. Jay Smith's ability to stay injury-free.

True... but Jay has had two fractures, which are beyond anyones control. For instance, Gowers persistent groin injuries, Tes's continual absence through illness, Husbands mysterious strains, ditto Corbet... I question these players ability to stay fit more than Jay's. He never seemed to get the niggles and strains associated with sicknote types.

Quote[/b] ]3. The fact that Mark Bentley remains unproven and untested at this level.

Agreed. But he has still scored more than Maher in less than half a season.

Quote[/b] ]4. The fact that, even when all the other pieces of the jigsaw have been there (Bentley, Gower, Constantine & Pettefer away at Huddersfield, for example), we still have not convinced when Maher has not been there.

But give that midfield a decent run and they will start to gel. Replace Constantine with Gower, put Smith in the middle with Bentley (or Corbett, even) and you have a different proposition altogether.

Quote[/b] ]5. The demonstration by Maher that, when he puts his mind to it, he is head and shoulders above perhaps everyone at the club in terms of ability. His performance away at Col Ewe in the LDV Southern Final remains one of the most brilliant performances by a Southend midfielder that I've had the privilege to watch in the last 13 years.

You've hit those key words, "when he puts his mind to it".

Be fair, the last four months apart, how many truly brilliant and influential midfield performances has Maher put in?

One, two, maybe three a season?

And this is our kingpin we need to build a team around?

Oh please.

Look at other key players and kingpins that have had teams built around them in the past;

Steve Castle at Orient, late 80's - mid 90's - he was a truly inspirational player and captain, ball winning, tough tackling, and regularly scored more in a season than Kev has in his whole career.

Lee Trundle at Swansea - goalscoring record speaks for itself. When he didn't play, Swansea were sh*te.

Keith Jones at Brentford - he was their total inspiration until he joined us, and then was very influential as a Shrimper before moving on to Charlton.

Lets go up a level or two... Roy Keane, David Beckham, Alan Shearer, Liam Brady... take these key players out of the team and they visibly suffer through a lack of goals or creativity.

Lets look at our own key players in the past... Ron Pountney and Colin Morris in the late 70's... the team was never the same without them in it. Ricky Otto... everything revolved around him and in his absence we were devoid of width and invention.

All of the above players were so influential on a match that they had the ability to almost win it on their own. They are the sort of players teams should be built around.

Kevin Maher? I don't think so. Mark Gower? Definitely the closest we have got to anyone approaching influential.

For Maher to deserve the status of kingpin he has to "put his mind to it" for 75% plus of the games... then I'd agree with you.

 

[Banksy]

Quote[/b] (fbm @ May 18 2004,14:29)]Kevin Maher?  I don't think so.  Mark Gower?  Definitely the closest we have got to anyone approaching influential.

For Maher to deserve the status of kingpin he has to "put his mind to it" for 75% plus of the games... then I'd agree with you.

You are not far off it. But Gower should set up more rather than wanting to steal the glory !

 

[fbm]

Quote[/b] (Banksy @ May 18 2004,15:03)]

Quote[/b] (fbm @ May 18 2004,14:29)]Kevin Maher?  I don't think so.  Mark Gower?  Definitely the closest we have got to anyone approaching influential.

For Maher to deserve the status of kingpin he has to "put his mind to it" for 75% plus of the games... then I'd agree with you.

You are not far off it. But Gower should set up more rather than wanting to steal the glory !

Totally agree on that bit!

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (fbm @ May 18 2004,14:29)]Be fair, the last four months apart, how many truly brilliant and influential midfield performances has Maher put in?

That's ultimately where we differ. I see the last four months as his burgeoning talent bearing fruit; you see it as flash in the pan.

And that's why, if he left us, it would be a big blow...

Matt

 

[fbm]

Quote[/b] (Matt the Shrimp @ May 18 2004,15:55)]

Quote[/b] (fbm @ May 18 2004,14:29)]Be fair, the last four months apart, how many truly brilliant and influential midfield performances has Maher put in?

That's ultimately where we differ.  I see the last four months as his burgeoning talent bearing fruit; you see it as flash in the pan.

And that's why, if he left us, it would be a big blow...

Matt

Ok... we'll agree to differ... which, as you say, is unusual.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Quote[/b] (fbm @ May 18 2004,16:28)]Ok... we'll agree to differ... which, as you say, is unusual.

Indeed, since fools seldom differ...

 

[Perth Bambi]

Its a bit worrying that people think that a player cannot be influential if he does not score or create goals. If Maher is surrounded by creative players like Gower and Smith then his job should not be be to score, but in fact to drop back so if by any chance these creative players lose possesion then there will be someone back to cover. The defence need help. Nicky and on a larger scale Ashley Cole are both creative players but frustrate me with their inability to be in their defensive position when the other team are attacking.
On the point of influential players have to be creative I think you will find that consistently Keane has scored the least in midfield even when playing with Ince who was also a defensive midfielder.
Goals are not the be all and end all because if we put two away but concede three then we are left with nothing.
I also disagree with the point about Kev's inability to pass. He may not hit 50 yard balls but then again we are a division three team so should we expect this from our defensive midfielders. These last two seasons Kevins play has been both intelligent and consistent and for this reason we must keep him.

 

[fbm]

Quote[/b] (Yorkshire Bambi @ May 18 2004,17:46)]Its a bit worrying that people think that a player cannot be influential if he does not score or create goals. If Maher is surrounded by creative players like Gower and Smith then his job should not be be to score, but in fact to drop back so if by any chance these creative players lose possesion then there will be someone back to cover. The defence need help. Nicky and on a larger scale Ashley Cole are both creative players but frustrate me with their inability to be in their defensive position when the other team are attacking.
On the point of influential players have to be creative I think you will find that consistently Keane has scored the least in midfield even when playing with Ince who was also a defensive midfielder.
Goals are not the be all and end all because if we put two away but concede three then we are left with nothing.
I also disagree with the point about Kev's inability to pass. He may not hit 50 yard balls but then again we are a division three team so should we expect this from our defensive midfielders. These last two seasons Kevins play has been both intelligent and consistent and for this reason we must keep him.

I am not doubting that Kev has put in some sterling defensive midfield performances, but in order to influence a match, surely that means making something happen rather than stopping things from happening.

I don't think we should be building a team around anyone actually; otherwise there is an over-reliance on them, and when they don't perform or aren't around, the whole system fails. This could explain the midfield performances when Maher hasn't been in the team this year.

However, as to whether we keep him is out of our hands anyway. Good luck Kev, whatever you end up doing.