Wake up people

[Interpol Shrimper]

Selling Barnard didn't help but it would rank below several other factors in the post-mortem of our relegation, IMO.

I wanted to have a post-mortem (football reasons only) about our relegation but the thread died a death.
Certainly Barnard going wasn't my major reason for the slump either.

 

[Jam_Man]

I wanted to have a post-mortem (football reasons only) about our relegation but the thread died a death.
Certainly Barnard going wasn't my major reason for the slump either.

More due to confidence and morale.

Obviously Barnard leaving affects morale and that in itself would have been a factor, but the stats show we still scored games. Sadly we were too beatable...

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

The thing with Freddy was he didnt need us to create chances for him, most of his goals were out of nothing from 20 yards away so he actually made the team look more successful.

With other strikers they wont score unless the team is playing well enough to create chances, Eastwood would win games we would have lost or drawn by a bit of solo magic.

As for Spencer I think he could be a very good player for us and should be given a good run in the team and not judged just yet.

The thing is, that even someone who scores his goals from outside the area is reliant on his team-mates. Compare how many goals he scored in league one and two to how many goals he scored in the championship.

The difference wasn't that the goalkeepers were that much better in the championship and were saving his shots, it was that he received the ball in better positions and had more attacking options with the likes of Guttridge getting forward. In the championship he'd drop to receive the ball 35 yards out and be isolated, whereas in league one he'd drop to receive the ball 25 yards out but have players up alongside him. It's that much easier to beat a player when you have a man or two in support because if you are up front alone you become predictable, because the only thing you can do to hurt the opposition is to take it on yourself and have a dig so defenders can just guard against that. If you can however put doubt in their mind as to whether you are going to pick a pass or shoot you can put an element of doubt into the defender's mind, which buys you that opening to exploit. We had no-one creating space for Eastwood in the championship, and so even a special player like him struggled to score goals and was reliant on penalties and the occasional free-kick against Man U.

In fact Eastwood is a pretty good example of the limits of the "proven goalscorer": we had a goalscorer yet were still relegated. The previous season, when he had a good team alongside him (and not a poor team 30 yards behind him), he scored twice as many goals.

 

[Beefy]

It was the midfield behind him which hamstrung Eastwood. Maher and whoever happened to be alongside him sat back in front of the back four leaving a massive gap between the midfield and the forwards. Starved of the ball, and probably frustrated at being frequently double-marked whenever he was within 20 yards of goal, Eastwood was forced back into picking the ball up on the half way line with eight or nine players between him and the goal.

I think his goal at Stoke was the only goal out of 15 that season which he scored from inside the six yard box.

 

[OldBlueLady]

It was the midfield behind him which hamstrung Eastwood. Maher and whoever happened to be alongside him sat back in front of the back four leaving a massive gap between the midfield and the forwards. Starved of the ball, and probably frustrated at being frequently double-marked whenever he was within 20 yards of goal, Eastwood was forced back into picking the ball up on the half way line with eight or nine players between him and the goal.

I think his goal at Stoke was the only goal out of 15 that season which he scored from insdie the six yard box.

Made by one Richie Foran on his debut I believe if my memory serves me right.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Thats your opinion but i would have a bet that over 90% of managers would strongly disagree.

After watching Barnard last year you should know that taking a goalscorer out of the team causes major problems.

Why are goalscorers paid the most amount of money compared to the rest of the team?

90% of all managers or 90% of successful managers?

Rooney, Drogba etc aren't particularly goalscorers. They're good players so they'll score goals, but they are far from their teams only source of goals.

That's because we were scoring from all over the team. We had Gower, Macca ,Bailey ,Barrett ,P.Clarke , Leon Clarke, Hammell and Robson-Kanu all scoring. So yes, a goalscorer wasn't so important.
But last season, we wasn't scoring from all area's. As soon as our only goalscorer went, we was in big trouble. So in that case, a regular goalscorer was vital.

I admit to not seeing any of the friendlies, but have read all the reports on here, and the reports in the papers. I know enough to read into it that the defenders and midfield may struggle for goals. Both wingers will chip in with a few each I think. The current forwards I am not convinced about. So with this current crop of players, and with promotion not now impossible, then I personally think we need a goalscorer.

We could sign a "proven" goalscorer like a Paynter, a Charlie MacDonald or whoever and they'd struggle to score without the service.

In a team that is creating chances, getting forward, you'd find that players like Spencer and Paterson will score goals.

 

[Jam_Man]

It was the midfield behind him which hamstrung Eastwood. Maher and whoever happened to be alongside him sat back in front of the back four leaving a massive gap between the midfield and the forwards. Starved of the ball, and probably frustrated at being frequently double-marked whenever he was within 20 yards of goal, Eastwood was forced back into picking the ball up on the half way line with eight or nine players between him and the goal.

I think his goal at Stoke was the only goal out of 15 that season which he scored from inside the six yard box.

Not sure it hamstrung him as he always hung back anyway, Eastwood preferred to play deep so he could run on goal and get a shot off from the edge of the box.That was his preference rather than something forced upon him by tactics, although they meant thats what he would have had to do anyway.

 

[Jam_Man]

The thing is, that even someone who scores his goals from outside the area is reliant on his team-mates. Compare how many goals he scored in league one and two to how many goals he scored in the championship.

The difference wasn't that the goalkeepers were that much better in the championship and were saving his shots, it was that he received the ball in better positions and had more attacking options with the likes of Guttridge getting forward. In the championship he'd drop to receive the ball 35 yards out and be isolated, whereas in league one he'd drop to receive the ball 25 yards out but have players up alongside him. It's that much easier to beat a player when you have a man or two in support because if you are up front alone you become predictable, because the only thing you can do to hurt the opposition is to take it on yourself and have a dig so defenders can just guard against that. If you can however put doubt in their mind as to whether you are going to pick a pass or shoot you can put an element of doubt into the defender's mind, which buys you that opening to exploit. We had no-one creating space for Eastwood in the championship, and so even a special player like him struggled to score goals and was reliant on penalties and the occasional free-kick against Man U.

In fact Eastwood is a pretty good example of the limits of the "proven goalscorer": we had a goalscorer yet were still relegated. The previous season, when he had a good team alongside him (and not a poor team 30 yards behind him), he scored twice as many goals.

Any striker is reliant on his team mates but one who can pick the ball up 30 yards out and score is certainly less so. Thats 20 yards less the team has to get the ball forward and a final ball they dont have to play in. Just give it to Eastwood anywhere 30 yards out and you have a chance at a goal is easier than working the ball into a scoring position 10 yards from ghao.

As for the last comment yes a proven goalscorer wont save a poor team but you cant make comparisons with the previous team because the opposition was far far better.

To score 16 goals in a team that was relegated that didnt win for 17 games or whatever it was was still a very good return for a striker. That was down to Freddys talent, not the team.

 

[WESTY_SUFC]

How would you explain Charlie MacDonald and Billy Paynter's distinct lack of goals for us then? Regular, run of the mill lower league strikers are nothing without service. Eastwood could create something for himself out of nothing, but he was a once in a lifetime phenomenon for a club of our stature.

Charlie McDonald didnt really get a good run in the team but i get your point. Billy Paynter took a couple of seasons after leaving us to have a good season in terms of goals. As much as he did amazingly well last season im yet to be convinced he will score goals in the championship which is where he was at us when signed. Im not disagreeing with the point that strikers do need service from the rest of the team as i agree.

 

[WESTY_SUFC]

90% of all managers or 90% of successful managers?

Rooney, Drogba etc aren't particularly goalscorers. They're good players so they'll score goals, but they are far from their teams only source of goals.
QUOTE]

Rooney & Drogba have goalscoring ratios of about 1 in every 2 games throughout their careers. That to me is a goalscorer. Thats their main attribute although they have plenty of others at a very high level too. Im sure Man U and Chelsea didnt sign them up because of there work rate or strength etc.

Most successfull managers and teams have goalscorers.

A balance is needed between everything in terms of creating chances, finishing and pressurising opponents to make mistakes.

I have seem plenty of games live and on tv where a team has outplayed the other but their strikers missed chances and they went on to lose the game. A team with a good striker has the posibilty of playing poorly and still being able to win where as one without would find it much more difficult unless they play well every game.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Rooney & Drogba have goalscoring ratios of about 1 in every 2 games throughout their careers.

Rooney at Everton: 15 goals in 40 starts and 27 sub appearances.


Of course he's going to score goals at Man U. Man U create bucket loads of chances. There are plenty of players who you could chuck up front for Man U and they'd score at 1 in every 2.

Even Heskey scored 39 goals in his first two seasons at Liverpool

That to me is a goalscorer. Thats their main attribute although they have plenty of others at a very high level too. Im sure Man U and Chelsea didnt sign them up because of there work rate or strength etc.

I can assure you Ferguson and Mourinho did sign them because of their other attributes.

Had they wanted someone to purely stick the ball in the net, they'd have stuck with van Nistelrooy and Hasselbank, who had far better goalscoring records.

Most successfull managers and teams have goalscorers.

To be successful your team needs to score, but them scoring goals is an effect of them being in a good team, not the cause of it.

A balance is needed between everything in terms of creating chances, finishing and pressurising opponents to make mistakes.

I have seem plenty of games live and on tv where a team has outplayed the other but their strikers missed chances and they went on to lose the game. A team with a good striker has the posibilty of playing poorly and still being able to win where as one without would find it much more difficult unless they play well every game.

And I've probably seen as many games where the same good striker misses chances but such anecdotal evidence proves nothing. I could also sit here all night and quote "proven" goalscorers who score at one club (because of good supply) and then fail to score at another club.

It's easy to score goals in a team creating lots of chances. Create lots of chances and we'll score lots of goals. But a good striker will struggle to score in a team that doesn't create chances.

 

[Fairport]

The best way to measure goal scoring abilities is to look at the ratio of goals against chances. There are probably stats available that would be interesting but I would imagine that someone like Lee Barnard has a high percentage.
I felt that we created plenty of chances last season but the finishing was woeful, especially from midfield. Grant, Macca, Jeff etc had numerous chances but missed almost every time. In the past we had the likes of Bailey and Gower who would get their fair share of goals from a similar number of chances.
It looks as if Sturrock will have a similar problem. Good example is Anthony Grant, a talented player who just cant seem to shoot! Yet Sturrock appears to play him in a prominent attacking midfield role.

 

[Tommy2holes]

Well hopefully we will finally have an attacking midfield with two out an out wingers. Something we have lacked for quite some time.

And from what i have seen i think spencer and pato will score goals at this level. Im not saying league two will be a walk in the park , but there are some abysmal sides in that division.

 

[EastStandBlue]

I honestly don't know how anybody could've looked upon the shower we watched in the latter half of last season and say we created chances in abundance. Our only creative midfielder was pushed out to the left to make way for an Irishman who couldn't create a collage of his favourite pubs and the only spell we looked half decent was when Scannell suddenly burst into life... for all of three games before his injury.

Yes, we need workmanlike midfielders in the squad to help the defence, but there needs to be a considerable balance and we rarely had that last season.

We don't need another striker. We have 6 including Laurent and that's more than enough... We really need to be sorting the defence out properly and, if the opportunity arises, to bring a creative midfielder capable of passing the ball more than 10 feet. Tommy Doherty, who signed for Bradford, is the type of player we need.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

The best way to measure goal scoring abilities is to look at the ratio of goals against chances. There are probably stats available that would be interesting but I would imagine that someone like Lee Barnard has a high percentage.
I felt that we created plenty of chances last season but the finishing was woeful, especially from midfield. Grant, Macca, Jeff etc had numerous chances but missed almost every time. In the past we had the likes of Bailey and Gower who would get their fair share of goals from a similar number of chances.
It looks as if Sturrock will have a similar problem. Good example is Anthony Grant, a talented player who just cant seem to shoot! Yet Sturrock appears to play him in a prominent attacking midfield role.

I agree with everything you said Fairport.
Anthony Grant is a defensive midfielder who can't hit a barn door. As I was trying to say earlier, that if goals aren't coming from the rest of the team, then a regular goalscorer is crucial. If everyone is chipping in then you can get away with it.

 

[WESTY_SUFC]

Yorkshire Blue, we can pick eachothers posts apart for weeks debating the balance between creating chances and scoring etc etc. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

One question for you. Why are all the transfer records over the world (including historically) tend to be for players with good goalscoring records?

 

[Shrimperforlife]

I honestly don't know how anybody could've looked upon the shower we watched in the latter half of last season and say we created chances in abundance. Our only creative midfielder was pushed out to the left to make way for an Irishman who couldn't create a collage of his favourite pubs and the only spell we looked half decent was when Scannell suddenly burst into life... for all of three games before his injury.

Yes, we need workmanlike midfielders in the squad to help the defence, but there needs to be a considerable balance and we rarely had that last season.

We don't need another striker. We have 6 including Laurent and that's more than enough... We really need to be sorting the defence out properly and, if the opportunity arises, to bring a creative midfielder capable of passing the ball more than 10 feet. Tommy Doherty, who signed for Bradford, is the type of player we need.

Might need another one now Laurent has walked away...

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

The best way to measure goal scoring abilities is to look at the ratio of goals against chances. There are probably stats available that would be interesting but I would imagine that someone like Lee Barnard has a high percentage.

But even that fails to take into account how good someone is at getting into goalscoring positions, which is still a factor, albeit not as important as the team around that forward.

FWIW I'm not sure Barnard's percentage would necessarily be that high. I recall him missing a few chances, but these were seemingly all forgotten once he scored.

I felt that we created plenty of chances last season but the finishing was woeful, especially from midfield. Grant, Macca, Jeff etc had numerous chances but missed almost every time. In the past we had the likes of Bailey and Gower who would get their fair share of goals from a similar number of chances.
It looks as if Sturrock will have a similar problem. Good example is Anthony Grant, a talented player who just cant seem to shoot! Yet Sturrock appears to play him in a prominent attacking midfield role.

Shooting is a small part of an attacking midfielder's role. I actually think Grant will score a decent amount next season, but the key is for him to get into the penalty area, because his shooting from distance is approaching McCormack levels of wayardness. I'm more concerned about his passing.

Well hopefully we will finally have an attacking midfield with two out an out wingers. Something we have lacked for quite some time.

And from what i have seen i think spencer and pato will score goals at this level. Im not saying league two will be a walk in the park , but there are some abysmal sides in that division.

We might have two attacking wingers, but we'll still need the central midfield to give them good possession and to get up in support of them. Despite having two out and out wingers, I think our midfield will be less attacking this season than it was when we won the League One title, because our central midfield won't get forward as well as Guttridge did.

I honestly don't know how anybody could've looked upon the shower we watched in the latter half of last season and say we created chances in abundance. Our only creative midfielder was pushed out to the left to make way for an Irishman who couldn't create a collage of his favourite pubs and the only spell we looked half decent was when Scannell suddenly burst into life... for all of three games before his injury.

Yes, we need workmanlike midfielders in the squad to help the defence, but there needs to be a considerable balance and we rarely had that last season.

We don't need another striker. We have 6 including Laurent and that's more than enough... We really need to be sorting the defence out properly and, if the opportunity arises, to bring a creative midfielder capable of passing the ball more than 10 feet. Tommy Doherty, who signed for Bradford, is the type of player we need.

Would have loved us to have signed Doherty.

Yorkshire Blue, we can pick eachothers posts apart for weeks debating the balance between creating chances and scoring etc etc. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

One question for you. Why are all the transfer records over the world (including historically) tend to be for players with good goalscoring records?

Read Moneyball.

 

[Smiffy]

We need a proven goalscorer (Yes hard to come by blah blah) but we DO need one and Sturrock obviously agree's.

We also need a few defenders (First priority) and a creative centre mid or two.

Plenty of work to come for Luggy.

10,000 posts up for me. I need to get out more!

 

[TravellingBlue]

We need a proven goalscorer (Yes hard to come by blah blah) but we DO need one and Sturrock obviously agree's.

We also need a few defenders (First priority) and a creative centre mid or two.

Plenty of work to come for Luggy.

Agree, I really like the enthusiasm and work rate of both Screech and Pato, but a proven goalscorer would be a really good addition, just to take the pressure off the youngsters. Defence must still be our priority, we need a bit of pace and a bit of height.