The Thursday Dilemma - Ched Evans

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Many many poor women are raped and the man gets away it. DO NOT ever accuse me of blaming the victim

I won't red you for that though, I think the subject matter is a bit more serious than that - if you know what I mean.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

A jury of 12 random people with no knowledge of rape cases. Swearing on oath is about as much use as a chocolate teapot. I know a lot is women don't report rape and he was found guilty but that doesn't mean he did it. What is does mean is the woman had a better lawyer. I was threatened by a bloke and had my car smashed by him but because his defence lawyer was better than my lawyer, he got off. I know it's a far cry from rape but in so many cases, the lawyers win or lose cases by making what the say more believable

Your point might have had some validity if you'd understood the burden of proof required to convict someone.

A defence lawyer only has to establish some reasonable doubt to get his client acquitted. A prosecutor has to establish someone's guilt BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Without doubt the most disgusting statement I have read on this forum. You should be ashamed of yourself!!!

There are so many innocent men and women who end up in jail because 12 men/women listen to some evidence that has been put to them and they decide whether the person is guilty or not. As I said before, if the prosecution lawyer is a stronger character, that makes them the more believable source. At the same time, many people end up in jail who should be there using the same system. It is flawed in many ways as imperfect humans are making a decision that could have a life changing effect on another human being.

Yes, Ched Evans was found guilty so he is guilty. He did not deny having sex with the woman but she denied consenting. This is where I am talking about a Grey area. She wasn't dragged down an alley, pinned down and raped. She had drinks with them ans said she woke the next day naked on a bed. Could she have agreed to sex? Why did she go with them? These are the points I am talking about. She has to be believed but in other cases, women have cried rape to cover up sleeping with someone. I am not saying this is the case here.

As I said before, rape is disgusting and second only to murder. I know they have the death penalty in some states in the US but not sure what the sentence is for rape, possibly castration, I don't know. I would never condone rape or say the victim asked for it and a lot of women don't come forward but there are those women who make it difficult for women to come forward by crying rape.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Your point might have had some validity if you'd understood the burden of proof required to convict someone.

A defence lawyer only has to establish some reasonable doubt to get his client acquitted. A prosecutor has to establish someone's guilt BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT.

Yes that is a good point and I guess the jury are swayed by the judge in cases like this

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Go back and edit your posts then as you said that a convicted rapist may not be a rapist and you based that on nothing that was specific to the case.

Maybe I didn't make it clear. If you were found guilty of something and you knew you hadn't done it, you are still innocent in your own eyes aren't you? The only time then that you aren't guilty is if there is a re-trial or new evidence comes to light. I'd hate to be found guilty of something knowing full well I hadn't done it.

I'm not saying Evans didn't do it, I'm saying not everyone that's found guilty have actually done it, that is all

 

[mrsblue]

Evans would need bodyguards at every game in particular away matches where many nutters would do him harm if given the chance!

United are deluded if they think he would be welcomed back into league football!

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Evans would need bodyguards at every game in particular away matches where many nutters would do him harm if given the chance!

United are deluded if they think he would be welcomed back into league football!

It's the same for any convicted footballer I guess

 

[mrsblue]

It's the same for any convicted footballer I guess

Majority of rapists exit prison and go into hiding so to speak yet Evans will be in the spotlight and I cannot see him overcoming the abuse or potential assault's.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Majority of rapists exit prison and go into hiding so to speak yet Evans will be in the spotlight and I cannot see him overcoming the abuse or potential assault's.

I think he will get more abuse than McCormick even though he was convicted of death by dangerous driving

 

[MK Shrimper]

It's the same for any convicted footballer I guess

Ricky Otto?

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Ricky Otto?

True, though I think armed robbery wouldn't deemed the same as rape. I think rape and murder would top the scale.

Look at Ricky Otto nowerdays. Turned to god and is now very motivational

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Maybe I didn't make it clear. If you were found guilty of something and you knew you hadn't done it, you are still innocent in your own eyes aren't you? The only time then that you aren't guilty is if there is a re-trial or new evidence comes to light. I'd hate to be found guilty of something knowing full well I hadn't done it.

I'm not saying Evans didn't do it, I'm saying not everyone that's found guilty have actually done it, that is all

I agree you didn't make it clear, but then in post 23 you make it not clear again - why start putting in scenarios of what may have happened, the court heard what he had to say and found him guilty - still no grey area.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

I agree you didn't make it clear, but then in post 23 you make it not clear again - why start putting in scenarios of what may have happened, the court heard what he had to say and found him guilty - still no grey area.

I'm using him as an example in general of how a court could work in a certain situation. He is guilty as found by the law of the land, which has been proven on numerous occasions to be wrong and flawed but it is the only way to find if someone has committed the crime they are accused of.



I hope you never find yourself in a situation where you are innocent but get found guilty. It would ruin me if it happened to me, I know that for sure.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I hope you never find yourself in a situation where you are innocent but get found guilty. It would ruin me if it happened to me, I know that for sure.

Exactly.

That's why the bloke in your case got off. The jury may well have thought he did it, but unless they were convinced beyond reasonable doubt the law says they can't convict.

 

[Pubey]

I'm not sure how this stacks up legally, but it's an interesting post (from a more feminist perspective)

http://caffeinatedperspectives.word...al-hegemony-and-the-presumption-of-innocence/

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Exactly.

That's why the bloke in your case got off. The jury may well have thought he did it, but unless they were convinced beyond reasonable doubt the law says they can't convict.

The law is an arse. I felt so angry that day and I wasn't the one found guilty of something I didn't do

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

The law is an arse. I felt so angry that day and I wasn't the one found guilty of something I didn't do

More angry than if you were found guilty of something you didn't do?

 

[davewebbsbrain]

More angry than if you were found guilty of something you didn't do?

No, I'd be far angrier had I been found guilty of something I hadn't done, as would you and everyone else

 

[Beefy]

Wouldnt want a convicted rapist at the club no.

His girlfriend said its only because he is a footballer people are talking about it, well in the real world if you went to prison you wouldnt expect to go back to your previous job and getting a new one would be tricky. Why should a footballer be any different ?

Because his employer wants him back. Your employer probably wouldn't.

The "in the real world" arguments wreck my head. If you're good at somethnig then you should be able to continue doing that something once you have paid your debt to society.

I'm glad that it isn't Southend involved in this one but as a point of principle I think everyone should be able to get on with their life after prison.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Because his employer wants him back. Your employer probably wouldn't.

The "in the real world" arguments wreck my head. If you're good at somethnig then you should be able to continue doing that something once you have paid your debt to society.

I'm glad that it isn't Southend involved in this one but as a point of principle I think everyone should be able to get on with their life after prison.

Robert Thompson and Jon Venables even?