The Independent Group

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I have no issue with these MP's leaving the party if they don't feel they belong (most of them have been subject to votes from the local membership telling them their recent behaviour should change or they are not welcome) so its fairly mutual. I do have an issue with them being voted in on Labour policies, on the backs of Labour members and then delivering something else, no one knows what yet. Their constituents voted for a Labour MP - they should have the opportunity to vote to actually be represented by a Labour MP rather than an independent.

The one thing that binds the 7 together is calling for a new referendum, it is the height of hypocrisy if their voters don't have the opportunity to say what type of MP they want.

I think that explains fairly clearly why they were virtually forced into the difficult decision they made yesterday. It also surely poses a very important question..................the Labour Party under Corbyn...........a broad church or a sect?
In my view the problem with the party at the moment is very deep seated, for me it's not essentially about policies..........they can always be changed. The problem lies more in the mind set, the ethos of the party. Outwardly, it gives the impression of being very open and democratic but under the present clique headed by Corbyn, criticism of the party line (unless you want to support pro Brexit amendments) is not easily tolerated and thus we arrive at the victimisation of dissenters, seen by many as bullying. It's become a bit of a nasty party but in a very different sense to when we apply that word to the Tories.
I've probably not put it quite as well as I would have liked but I think you get the general drift. [/QUOTE]

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I think that explains fairly clearly why they were virtually forced into the difficult decision they made yesterday. It also surely poses a very important question..................the Labour Party under Corbyn...........a broad church or a sect?
In my view the problem with the party at the moment is very deep seated, for me it's not essentially about policies..........they can always be changed. The problem lies more in the mind set, the ethos of the party. Outwardly, it gives the impression of being very open and democratic but under the present clique headed by Corbyn, criticism of the party line (unless you want to support pro Brexit amendments) is not easily tolerated and thus we arrive at the victimisation of dissenters, seen by many as bulling. It's become a bit of a nasty party but in a very different sense to when we apply that word to the Tories.
I've probably not put it quite as well as I would have liked but I think you get the general drift.

[/QUOTE] the bare minimum that is expected of a Labour MP is that they want a Labour government. The votes of no confidence were I believe exclusively for the reason of not promoting a Labour government. I don't know if you have ever been actively involved in local politics but the hard work falls onto a handful of individuals who dedicate big chunks of their lives to ensuring they have an MP to represent them. If they feel their MP doesn't represent them then the whole structure falls apart if those dedicating their time no longer see an end goal.

Surely if those hard working local members who are working for a Labour government have an MP who is not doing that then they would hold that MP to account. That is democracy, no?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

The issues with anti seminism and bullying seem to be getting ignored on here. Any particular reason?

On here as in on Shrimperzone? Maybe everyone has realised that it's being used as a tool against one party and ignored in all other incidents. The data on investigations into allegations of AS within the Labour has been released and it makes people realise that people like Mike Gapes are just using Jewish people as a weapon against a party that are not at his beck and call. The reality is that the vast majority of cases were found not to be Labour members, of those that were many of the allegations were found to be false. Most who were guilty quit the party when under investigation and the few still left and found guilty have been expelled.

What do Joshua Bonehill-Paine, Garron Helm and John Nimmo have in common? All far right activists convicted of attacking Luciana Berger. Actual prison sentences. Yet Luciana's local party are branded anti-Semitic for calling a vote of no confidence in her after on TV she repeated failed to say she wants a Labour government. The Jewish chair of Wavertree CLP is called anti-Semitic for wanting a Labour MP to want a Labour government.

That's probably why people in places like Shrimperzone have stopped talking about AS allegations because as soon as you start looking into it you realise how many lies are passed around as facts.

If you google search everything I just wrote you will realise that is the reality of the situation.

 

[MK Shrimper]

It's rumoured two Tories are set to join them. Interesting times.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Funny no one has picked up on Angela Smith and "Funny tinge " interview

Chuka must have been tearing his hair out ....

I keep watching that footage and trying to work out what was going through her mind. It's not so much getting your words jumbled it's failing to put your public filter on and saying things as they are in your head.

For anyone who has not seen it - Angela Smith (an MP caught up in expenses scandals, criticised for employing her husband on a £40k contract, criticised for promoting water privatisation and then it emerged that her husband was a massive shareholder) went on BBC 20 minutes after launching the great new centrist collective and referred to ethnic minorities as 'black or funny tinged'.

It's horrible to watch, it's total slo mo car crash.

 

[blues exile]

the bare minimum that is expected of a Labour MP is that they want a Labour government. The votes of no confidence were I believe exclusively for the reason of not promoting a Labour government. I don't know if you have ever been actively involved in local politics but the hard work falls onto a handful of individuals who dedicate big chunks of their lives to ensuring they have an MP to represent them. If they feel their MP doesn't represent them then the whole structure falls apart if those dedicating their time no longer see an end goal.

Surely if those hard working local members who are working for a Labour government have an MP who is not doing that then they would hold that MP to account. That is democracy, no?[/QUOTE]

This bunch of chancers were quite happy to stand in the 2017 GE as Labour candidates which presumes they accepted the Labour manifesto. The hard work of unpaid local activists saw them all re-elected with increased majorities and they have repaid that effort with treachery at the worst possible time. They would probably all have been deselected by their CLPs by the next election anyway as they all have poor records as constituency MPs, failing to attend meetings, not holding surgeries etc. If they had any shred of honour they would stand down as MPs and let the electorate decide, but of course they haven't so they won't. Obviously there are limitations to their support for 'the people's vote'.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

the bare minimum that is expected of a Labour MP is that they want a Labour government. The votes of no confidence were I believe exclusively for the reason of not promoting a Labour government. I don't know if you have ever been actively involved in local politics but the hard work falls onto a handful of individuals who dedicate big chunks of their lives to ensuring they have an MP to represent them. If they feel their MP doesn't represent them then the whole structure falls apart if those dedicating their time no longer see an end goal.

Surely if those hard working local members who are working for a Labour government have an MP who is not doing that then they would hold that MP to account. That is democracy, no?

This bunch of chancers were quite happy to stand in the 2017 GE as Labour candidates which presumes they accepted the Labour manifesto. The hard work of unpaid local activists saw them all re-elected with increased majorities and they have repaid that effort with treachery at the worst possible time. They would probably all have been deselected by their CLPs by the next election anyway as they all have poor records as constituency MPs, failing to attend meetings, not holding surgeries etc. If they had any shred of honour they would stand down as MPs and let the electorate decide, but of course they haven't so they won't. Obviously there are limitations to their support for 'the people's vote'.[/QUOTE] everything they proport to believe in just looks like opportunism if they don't state their policies and ask the public to vote for them on those policies. Currently they have no mandate.

 

[RHB]

For those of us old enough to remember @Cricko, this is almost an exact replica of the Social Demoncrats break away group, and a precurser to the Lib Dems. I agree that by-elections should be called (although I doubt they will for the moment), but I don't think their ranks have finished being joined yet. More from The Labour group and maybe some Tory rebels could yet swell the numbers. Personally, I'm glad they've had the balls to speak up against some of the things happening in the Labour party. Watch this space, it seems, for developments. Maybe, just maybe this could be the catalyst for a new approach to British politics, as lets face it, the current set up is deeply flawed. My old man often said that you get the Government you don't vote for when I asked him what happens if I didn't vote. Apathy on the part of the voting public is part of the cause of our political ****storm we now have.

 

[blues exile]

I keep watching that footage and trying to work out what was going through her mind. It's not so much getting your words jumbled it's failing to put your public filter on and saying things as they are in your head.

For anyone who has not seen it - Angela Smith (an MP caught up in expenses scandals, criticised for employing her husband on a £40k contract, criticised for promoting water privatisation and then it emerged that her husband was a massive shareholder) went on BBC 20 minutes after launching the great new centrist collective and referred to ethnic minorities as 'black or funny tinged'.

It's horrible to watch, it's total slo mo car crash.

That's what happens when an insignificant backbencher with dubious Labour allegiance, who has been assiduously milking the system for years, suddenly appears in the spotlight.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

That's what happens when an insignificant backbencher with dubious Labour allegiance, who has been assiduously milking the system for years, suddenly appears in the spotlight.

she would have been better off keeping a low profile. People want a new party, that is understandable as the LibDems are decimated and it's pretty much a 2 party system. But the new party that people want is not what seems to be the one being offered. The 7 don't stand up to much scrutiny.

Some people feel politically homeless, I doubt this political Travellodge will fit their needs.

 

[blues exile]

she would have been better off keeping a low profile. People want a new party, that is understandable as the LibDems are decimated and it's pretty much a 2 party system. But the new party that people want is not what seems to be the one being offered. The 7 don't stand up to much scrutiny.

Some people feel politically homeless, I doubt this political Travellodge will fit their needs.

None of them have defined what their political philosophy is and have only paraded their antipathy to Labour's values, but their voting records collectively show that they are very much in favour of Tory austerity and foreign adventures. Moderate, centre ground politicians? Just a bunch of Blairites 2.0

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

the bare minimum that is expected of a Labour MP is that they want a Labour government. The votes of no confidence were I believe exclusively for the reason of not promoting a Labour government. I don't know if you have ever been actively involved in local politics but the hard work falls onto a handful of individuals who dedicate big chunks of their lives to ensuring they have an MP to represent them. If they feel their MP doesn't represent them then the whole structure falls apart if those dedicating their time no longer see an end goal.

Surely if those hard working local members who are working for a Labour government have an MP who is not doing that then they would hold that MP to account. That is democracy, no?[/QUOTE]

It's an interesting point of debate isn't it...............in the end, who is an MP beholden to? Should a member, once elected, place his soul in hoc to the party or should he vote with his conscience and the best interests of his constituents at heart? Filling the party (any party) with lobby fodder, 'Yes persons,' would deny us many of the more colourful representatives in the House. They may, at times be a pain in the a**e to the leadership but their contribution can be a valuable one.
I'm pretty sure all seven MP's would, still, desire a Labour government...............just not one with Corbyn as Prime Minister. The degree of desperation they must have felt to make the move they have must be enormous, they know the history of splinter groups. It's easy to pass it off as seven MP's who have been a thorn in the side of the party for a while...........good riddance to them! Yet, IIUC, there are many more, who may or may not follow and who are deeply unhappy with the leadership and the way the party is being run. When your own deputy-leader claims there is a need for change, perhaps it's a time not just to criticise and vilify these individuals as the problem but to taker a closer look at the party itself.

 

[RHB]

I wonder whether Sadiq Khan will consider throwing his lot in with them. And Andy Burnham for that matter. Yeah, I do know they're not MPs.

 

[GBJ]

This bunch of chancers were quite happy to stand in the 2017 GE as Labour candidates which presumes they accepted the Labour manifesto. The hard work of unpaid local activists saw them all re-elected with increased majorities and they have repaid that effort with treachery at the worst possible time. They would probably all have been deselected by their CLPs by the next election anyway as they all have poor records as constituency MPs, failing to attend meetings, not holding surgeries etc. If they had any shred of honour they would stand down as MPs and let the electorate decide, but of course they haven't so they won't. Obviously there are limitations to their support for 'the people's vote'.

And this is the Party you support? Voluntarily?

The Party you’ve so valiantly defended & proclaimed is our social saviour.

The Party which was different to the liars & selfish career politicians of the Tory Party?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I wonder whether Sadiq Khan will consider throwing his lot in with them. And Andy Burnham for that matter. Yeah, I do know they're not MPs.

no, neither will. There are a small amount of MPs probably weighing it up but not the two Mayors at all.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

And this is the Party you support? Voluntarily?

The Party you’ve so valiantly defended & proclaimed is our social saviour.

The Party which was different to the liars & selfish career politicians of the Tory Party?

he is pointing out that the 7 who have left were considered poor quality MPs and their local party members were pointing that out, so no, that is not the party he supports

 

[Ricky Otto]

Corbyn does seem to be loved by those who follow him, there isn't much middle ground. Like GBJ says, he's marmite. He has massive support from the youth of this country in a similar way to what Blair had when he swept into power with Noel Gallagher and the Britpop crowd telling all who would listen that he was the man to change this country. The difference is that Blair was central enough to convert older voters as well. IMO if Labour were to look at themselves they would realise that the youth vote that love Corbyn would never vote Tory so to lose Corbyn would not be losing the youth vote. It seems that Corbyn has to quit as he can't be ousted with the support he has from the membership and I see this group as a tool to chip away at Corbyn and get him to quit. I don't see any party upsetting the two party system in my lifetime, only influencing them.

Oh and please don't take this post as me wanting another Blair, I am fed up of this assumption that someone more central has to be another Blair. I purely used Blair to illustrate the youth vote similarities with Corbyn.

 

[Firestorm]

And this is the Party you support? Voluntarily?

The Party you’ve so valiantly defended & proclaimed is our social saviour.

The Party which was different to the liars & selfish career politicians of the Tory Party?

To be fair , it is this still the same party, its just that couple of people who did not agree with the party way have left, there has been a change in personnel not in the party manifesto or principles.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

the bare minimum that is expected of a Labour MP is that they want a Labour government. The votes of no confidence were I believe exclusively for the reason of not promoting a Labour government. I don't know if you have ever been actively involved in local politics but the hard work falls onto a handful of individuals who dedicate big chunks of their lives to ensuring they have an MP to represent them. If they feel their MP doesn't represent them then the whole structure falls apart if those dedicating their time no longer see an end goal.

Surely if those hard working local members who are working for a Labour government have an MP who is not doing that then they would hold that MP to account. That is democracy, no?

It's an interesting point of debate isn't it...............in the end, who is an MP beholden to? Should a member, once elected, place his soul in hoc to the party or should he vote with his conscience and the best interests of his constituents at heart? Filling the party (any party) with lobby fodder, 'Yes persons,' would deny us many of the more colourful representatives in the House. They may, at times be a pain in the a**e to the leadership but their contribution can be a valuable one.
I'm pretty sure all seven MP's would, still, desire a Labour government...............just not one with Corbyn as Prime Minister. The degree of desperation they must have felt to make the move they have must be enormous, they know the history of splinter groups. It's easy to pass it off as seven MP's who have been a thorn in the side of the party for a while...........good riddance to them! Yet, IIUC, there are many more, who may or may not follow and who are deeply unhappy with the leadership and the way the party is being run. When your own deputy-leader claims there is a need for change, perhaps it's a time not just to criticise and vilify these individuals as the problem but to taker a closer look at the party itself.[/QUOTE]


it's a process (or should be) - local party members choose a representative to stand for MP and support and canvas for that representative, if elected by the public as an MP under the party banner then the MP needs to represent the constituents, the local members and the party. If you remove any of those elements then it makes sense to hold a new election under the new circumstances,

 

[blues exile]

And this is the Party you support? Voluntarily?

The Party you’ve so valiantly defended & proclaimed is our social saviour.

The Party which was different to the liars & selfish career politicians of the Tory Party?

Absolutely I do. The overwhelming democratic choice of the largest political party in Europe is a leader of integrity and vision, which is precisely why the Blairite splinter group have departed. Far from wanting a new kind of politics they want a return to the Blair era of parachuted in MPs, reliance on big individual donors and corruption as usual. And of course, slavish adherence to the promotion of Israeli propaganda hence the trumped up antisemitism nonsense.