The Ashes Thread

[SUFC Forever]

what's Panesar got to do to become good again?

Getting more than the paltry ten wickets he has taken this season would be a start.

Gary Keedy of Lancashire must be the unluckiest cricketer ever not to have played for England. He has been a consistent wicket taker in county cricket and in my opinion is a far superior spinner to Panesar.

Unfortunately for Keedy, he has similar prowess to Monty in the field and as a batsman and that seems to have counted far more against him than Monty sadly.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Career wise (England apart) there isn't much difference between Keedy & Panesar.

Keedy has 545 wickets in 184 first class matches at 32, while Panesar has 344 in 105 at 32.

Derek Underwood apart (and I wouldn't class him as a spinner) in all the years I've been watching cricket England haven't had a spinner who would get a place in a world XI during that time. I think I've seen them all from David Allen through to Graeme Swann.

 

[Uncle Leo]

I'd be surprised if that Irish left-hander at Middlesex whose name escapes me isn't included. As might Malan, yet another Saffer batsmen.

Eion Morgan? England can't possibly pick someone with as stupid a first name as Dawid (Malan). Can they?

 

[number11]

Agree with everything else, but feel the above is a touch harsh. Virtually all the commentators on both Sky and TMS where saying it was a good toss for Ponting to lose, as well as um'ing and arr'ing over what they'd have done.

Agreed, plus when you consider our wicket keeper was suffering back spasms and there was general chaos before the start we didnt really want to be sending him straight out to keep. The problem was we needed our openers to stick around for most of the session to calm things down.....

 

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

With regards to Bopara being dropped 3 times in 10 tests, I saw this fact the other day.

Would you keep picking this player based on these stats

0,0,6,31,54,20,0,91*,55,2,42*,2,2,1,43,25,40,18,22,1,18.

21 innings - 473 runs @ 24.89.

Green to the person who can tell me who's stats these are from the start of his Test Match career.

 

[number11]

With regards to Bopara being dropped 3 times in 10 tests, I saw this fact the other day.

Would you keep picking this player based on these stats

0,0,6,31,54,20,0,91*,55,2,42*,2,2,1,43,25,40,18,22,1,18.

21 innings - 473 runs @ 24.89.

Green to the person who can tell me who's stats these are from the start of his Test Match career.

with the two ducks at ther start of the career I'm going to guess Gooch?

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

They won't take 7 batsmen to South Africa. Which probably means bye bye Bopara.

Can we afford not to take 7 batsmen, given how flaky our form has been? If you're right, though, I do think that means adios to Ravi for now - which is a real shame.

I think I'd take Harmison. Post-Flintoff we'll need someone with aggression. Broad could do it, but I'd rather get someone else in with some pace and bounce to ruffle up the opposition. Big Saj fan, but not sure about his fitness. He's currently out injured, again, for Lancs, don't think he's due back this season. God knows who else is out there. Maybe Robbie Joseph (who I think is also injured).

I thought there were rumours abounding that Harmy might call it a day - albeit he hasn't yet. Don't get me wrong - Harmy in full spate is a magnificent sight; but Harmy's record as a tourist gives me the jitters.

That said, if Saj is injured, then you're absolutely right that we're looking rather thin on options.

Murtagh is county. Might be an option at Headingley, but wouldn't dream of picking him for a tour spot.

So is Sideshow (again, whom you'd think of picking at Headingley), but it didn't stop him getting a reasonable crack of the whip. Doesn't Murtagh deserve a chance? If not, then how does any county player graduate?

Incidentally, I do think Woakes will be coming into the reckoning very soon, albeit I wouldn't want to rush the lad (a la Jimmy). He's clearly a precocious talent, though.

Finn has looked incredibly wayward whenever I've seen him. He needs about a year in a net with Allan Donald. He clearly has the physical attributes - he's, what, about 6' 8"?! - but he really needs to learn some control, or else he'll be slaughtered by any half-decent Test batsmen.

I'd be surprised if that Irish left-hander at Middlesex whose name escapes me isn't included. As might Malan, yet another Saffer batsmen. Carberry is out for the season and possibly any tour, can't remember what he did but apparently it was nasty.

Shame about Carberry - he's the sort of nuggety opener who might give Cook a run for his money. Good shout with Charl Malan, if we're serious about getting our all-Saffer line-up...

 

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

with the two ducks at ther start of the career I'm going to guess Gooch?

Correct.

This is why we need to identify talent, and there's no doubt Ravi has talent by the bucketload, and stick with them, rather than just worrying about beating the Aussies every 4 years.

 

[BLUEBLOOD]

How about young Harris from Glamorgan ?? certainly for an A tour spot

 

[Ron Manager]

For you twitters out there - #supportaggers

 

[canveyshrimper]

With regards to Bopara being dropped 3 times in 10 tests, I saw this fact the other day.

Would you keep picking this player based on these stats

0,0,6,31,54,20,0,91*,55,2,42*,2,2,1,43,25,40,18,22,1,18.

21 innings - 473 runs @ 24.89.

Green to the person who can tell me who's stats these are from the start of his Test Match career.

It's Graham Gooch, I've not looked down to see if someone else has got in first.

 

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

It's Graham Gooch, I've not looked down to see if someone else has got in first.

Correct! Number11 got in there 1st though :) The pair at the start gives it away.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Correct! Number11 got in there 1st though :) The pair at the start gives it away.

Yes saw he did. Gooch was also run out for 99 at the WACA (I think) before finally claiming his first test century off the fearsome WIndies attack. His record against the convicts was pretty average, but first rate against the West Indies, who dominated cricket during this time.

Sir Leonard Hutton did not have the most auspicious start to his test career getting 0 & 1 against the might of New Zealand.

But spare a thought for Andy Gaunteaume (spelling?) of the West Indies scored a century on debut and never played test cricket again.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Agree with everything else, but feel the above is a touch harsh. Virtually all the commentators on both Sky and TMS where saying it was a good toss for Ponting to lose, as well as um'ing and arr'ing over what they'd have done.

I can see how you can argue that it was a difficult decision, but I can't see how you can argue that it was the right decision. With hindsight the decision was clearly wrong. The forecast was for overcast humid conditions on the first day and perfect batting on the second and third days. Plus this was Headingley and wickets had been tumbling the previous day all over the country.

Strauss got that one wrong. You might argue that it was a difficult call, and I'd have some sympathy with that, but he is paid to make difficult calls. I thought batting first was a very conservative option, because the commentators never criticise someone for choosing to bat first. It might be an understandable mistake, but it definitely was a mistake.

Getting more than the paltry ten wickets he has taken this season would be a start.

Gary Keedy of Lancashire must be the unluckiest cricketer ever not to have played for England. He has been a consistent wicket taker in county cricket and in my opinion is a far superior spinner to Panesar.

Unfortunately for Keedy, he has similar prowess to Monty in the field and as a batsman and that seems to have counted far more against him than Monty sadly.

IMO Keedy is a bog standard county spinner, a Robert Croft or Gareth Batty minus the batting. Monty has the potential to maybe be a bit more than that with the ball. Not that I would pick him.

Derek Underwood apart (and I wouldn't class him as a spinner) in all the years I've been watching cricket England haven't had a spinner who would get a place in a world XI during that time. I think I've seen them all from David Allen through to Graeme Swann.

By the same token, I don't think England have had a spinner in that time frame that would be an automatic selection for me. I'd pick them as horses for courses, or at most because of their all-round contributions if you have a world-class all-rounder and 4 world class seamers.

Eion Morgan? England can't possibly pick someone with as stupid a first name as Dawid (Malan). Can they?

Yep, Morgan was the one. Eion is probably as stupid a name as Dawid, mind.

Agreed, plus when you consider our wicket keeper was suffering back spasms and there was general chaos before the start we didnt really want to be sending him straight out to keep. The problem was we needed our openers to stick around for most of the session to calm things down.....

It wasn't ideal, but I think we probably should have called up Foster (or Ambrose or someone) and gone with the extra batsman. Opting to bat or bowl based on when players are going to be available seems to be a bit amateurish to me. That's the type of thing that happened when I use to play beer cricket Monday nights after work when if we'd win the toss we'd bat to allow more of our players to turn up so we could field a full compliment in the field.

What were we going to do if Australia had won the toss and elected to bat?

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Correct.

This is why we need to identify talent, and there's no doubt Ravi has talent by the bucketload, and stick with them, rather than just worrying about beating the Aussies every 4 years.

Exactly. Just look at who was out matchwinner in the 5th test.

Many pundits would have dumped Broad before the 4th test but he came good. Pick the talent and persist with them (although not as much as we've persisted with Bell).

Can we afford not to take 7 batsmen, given how flaky our form has been? If you're right, though, I do think that means adios to Ravi for now - which is a real shame.

Depends a lot on whether they see us going in with 5 or 6 batsmen. I think England see Prior as a 6, in which case we'll only take one reserve bat. The way test tours regrettably are these days you don't play enough to pick on form going into the test, so somebody would only get dropped after a couple of tests.

I thought there were rumours abounding that Harmy might call it a day - albeit he hasn't yet. Don't get me wrong - Harmy in full spate is a magnificent sight; but Harmy's record as a tourist gives me the jitters.

That said, if Saj is injured, then you're absolutely right that we're looking rather thin on options.

Harmy doesn't fill me with much confidence, but on a good batting track there aren't many in England who do. On hard and true South African pitches I can't see many English county trundlers having much joy.

So is Sideshow (again, whom you'd think of picking at Headingley), but it didn't stop him getting a reasonable crack of the whip. Doesn't Murtagh deserve a chance? If not, then how does any county player graduate?

By county, I mean I think that is his ceiling.

The way I see players progressing through the ranks is the selectors identifying those with the ability to make an impact at the highest level and bringing them through the A-team and probably one-day sides and u19s. The likes of Strauss, Cook, Capey, Bell, Trott, Prior have certainly all come from this route. Anderson was plucked from the academy to make his debut, think Broad probably did an A tour as well.

I think Bresnan is probably ahead of Murtagh anyway, probably with the ball but certainly with the bat. They were team-mates for the u19s IIRC.

I think England persisted with Sideshow for far too long. It was one of Moores' biggest failings to go with the safe, old players rather than the young and talented. England looked a far better team once it was Broad and Anderson opening the bowling (or Flintoff when fit) and it was Anderson and Broad who provided the two telling performances of the series.

Moores also jettisoned Prior, who turned out to be a key player once persisted with.

Incidentally, I do think Woakes will be coming into the reckoning very soon, albeit I wouldn't want to rush the lad (a la Jimmy). He's clearly a precocious talent, though.

Finn has looked incredibly wayward whenever I've seen him. He needs about a year in a net with Allan Donald. He clearly has the physical attributes - he's, what, about 6' 8"?! - but he really needs to learn some control, or else he'll be slaughtered by any half-decent Test batsmen.

Donald has just announced he's going back to South Africa. Won't affect Finn, but might impact on Woakes.

 

[Smudger]

Donald has just announced he's going back to South Africa. Won't affect Finn, but might impact on Woakes.

Yeah, he's going to wuck with the Woverwham.

 

[WestRoadShrimper]

I can see how you can argue that it was a difficult decision, but I can't see how you can argue that it was the right decision. With hindsight the decision was clearly wrong. The forecast was for overcast humid conditions on the first day and perfect batting on the second and third days. Plus this was Headingley and wickets had been tumbling the previous day all over the country.

Strauss got that one wrong. You might argue that it was a difficult call, and I'd have some sympathy with that, but he is paid to make difficult calls. I thought batting first was a very conservative option, because the commentators never criticise someone for choosing to bat first. It might be an understandable mistake, but it definitely was a mistake.

Mistake, yes, but only with the 20/20 vision of hindsight. Between Sky and TMS they must have 6 or 7 ex test match captains that were doing the commentary. The fact they couldn't agree with what decision should have been made speaks volumes for how difficult it was to make. I don't feel someone can be criticised for getting a difficult decision wrong, that's all.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Donald has just announced he's going back to South Africa. Won't affect Finn, but might impact on Woakes.

That's a big blow. Is there any chance we can tempt Troy Coker back to these shores? A top-class pace-bowling coach would make a massive difference to our set-up... it would be nice if we could persuade someone like Courtney Walsh or Waqar Younis to get involved with the England coaching staff.

 

[Boreham Shrimper]

One day side currently 9-2 against Ireland

Oh dear :D

 

[The General]

Ravi and Trott both gone which means Denly and Prior are at the crease. 7 overs gone and rain had stopped play as of 10 minutes ago!