The Ashes - 2010-2011 Thread

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

Matt, how does Capey, who 360 runs at 60 with the bat (plus the key wicket of Michael Clarke at Adelaide), get lower marks than Strauss (scored 307 runs at 44 with the bat) and Swann (took 15 wickets at 40 with the ball)?

Similarly Finn (14 wickets@33 from 3 tests) has the same mark as Broad (2 wickets @81 from 2 tests) and less than Swann (15 wickets@40 from 5 tests)?

My ratings out of 10

Cook 10
Strauss 7
Trott 9
Pietersen 8
Bell 7
Collingwood 4
Prior 8
Broad 4
Swann 5
Anderson 9
Tremlett 9
Bresnan 9
Finn 6

Think your being harsh on Swann, although his average is high his E/R was 2.72, which was massively important in the way the side is set up. If swann had gone at 3.5 RPO the quicks would have had to bowl more, meaning they tired quicker. Also, the pitches werem't conducive to spin bowling, too much grass on them. It was telling that on the one pitch that turned, Swann took 7/161 in the match.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Think your being harsh on Swann, although his average is high his E/R was 2.72, which was massively important in the way the side is set up. If swann had gone at 3.5 RPO the quicks would have had to bowl more, meaning they tired quicker. Also, the pitches werem't conducive to spin bowling, too much grass on them. It was telling that on the one pitch that turned, Swann took 7/161 in the match.

If the pitches weren't conduicive to spin, we should have played an extra quick instead.

Bresnan, who didn't play the first three tests, had an even better economy rate (and average) and Collingwood, who also had a better economy rate and average, could also have been used more if we needed someone in a containing role whilst the quicks rested.

I think far too much credit is given for beating a beaten side. At Adelaide, the game was won by the seamers skittling them out cheaply in the first innings and then Cook and Capey piling on the runs. It was then just a matter of time (which England had). Swann's biggest contribution was the sprinkler.

 

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

If the pitches weren't conduicive to spin, we should have played an extra quick instead.

Bresnan, who didn't play the first three tests, had an even better economy rate (and average) and Collingwood, who also had a better economy rate and average, could also have been used more if we needed someone in a containing role whilst the quicks rested.

I think far too much credit is given for beating a beaten side. At Adelaide, the game was won by the seamers skittling them out cheaply in the first innings and then Cook and Capey piling on the runs. It was then just a matter of time (which England had). Swann's biggest contribution was the sprinkler.

Point taken about Bresnan although he had very helpful conditions to bowl in at Melbourne in the 1st inns, but I don't think you could expect Collingwood to bowl 50+ overs in a test at a better E/R than Swann. Swann also took wickets at crucial times in the Adelaide test, Hussey in the 1st inns and Ponting in the 2nd

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Point taken about Bresnan although he had very helpful conditions to bowl in at Melbourne in the 1st inns, but I don't think you could expect Collingwood to bowl 50+ overs in a test at a better E/R than Swann. Swann also took wickets at crucial times in the Adelaide test, Hussey in the 1st inns and Ponting in the 2nd

I wouldn't expect Colly to bowl 50+ overs. I'd expect Bresnan to bowl 30 overs and take more wickets, meaning we bowl them out quicker. And if that doens't work, we still had Colly to fall back on to bowl some of those extra overs.

 

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

Hmm, all good points in theory, but not so sure in practice. 4 quicks can be a bit samey, there's not many teams go in nowadays without a spinner. Of course the obvious thing is to find a quick-bowling all-rounder, which gives you best of both worlds. If Broad can find some consistency with the bat, then that would be the best solution

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Hmm, all good points in theory, but not so sure in practice. 4 quicks can be a bit samey, there's not many teams go in nowadays without a spinner. Of course the obvious thing is to find a quick-bowling all-rounder, which gives you best of both worlds. If Broad can find some consistency with the bat, then that would be the best solution

It can be a problem, and variety is important, but I think this can be achieved in other ways:

1. better use of Collingwood for change of pace (and maybe now Bopara)
2. use of part-time spin options such as Capey
3. ensuring not all your seamers are the same - ie a tall bowler like Tremlett and a smaller skiddy bowler like a Gough or maybe a Shahzad
4. get the seamers to make better use of the crease to create different angles - facing Ntini wide of the crease as opposed to Pollock getting close to the stumps - and going both over and around the wicket

My preferred solution is actually the spinning all-rounder. If I was Australia I'd be looking at Cameron White and Steve Smith more than Beer and Docherty. For England Rashid is the big hope. Fortunately Swann offers something in the field and is a very good no.9 (but no higher) so it's maybe less of an issue, but I really think England will need to get more production out of that spot in the team against the division 1 sides (India, Sri Lanka, South Africa, Australia) than Swann as an orthodox spin bowler without a mystery ball is able to offer.

As for in practice, Australia's last two wins against England have both come with 4 men pace attacks and no spinner (I know they've lost with 4 men pace attacks, but they haven't won with an orthodox spinner for a long time). The West Indies managed OK in the 80s. South Africa did OK in the 90s.

What's harder to demonstrate is top teams that were successful with an orthodox spin bowler in the covered pitch era. My best examples would be England under Fletcher with Giles (only possible because Flintoff was an all-rounder) and maybe the current South African team with Harris (I'd suggest they were successful despite Harris than because of Harris, plus Kallis is a 4th bowler).

Australia with Warne/MacGill, Pakistan with Mushie and then Saqlain, Sri Lanka with Murali, India with Harbhajan are all examples of teams with spinners who turned it both ways.

 

[BLUEBLOOD]

I was paying attention Matt .. come on chaps, lets get this list of records going ...

*Cook - highest score by any Test player at the Gabba (235*)
*Highest score by England ever in Australia (644)
*Nos. 2 and 5 on the list of largest ever innings totals by visitors to Australia (644, 620/5 dec)
*Only 4th time in history, and first ever time in Australia, a side has made more than 4 innings scores in excess of 500 in a series
*First time Australia has ever lost three matches by an innings defeat at home
*First time in history a side has had century partnerships for the 6th 7th and 8th wickets
* 9 England centuries, an Ashes record
* Over 2000 minutes at the crease for Cook (Essex Essex Essex !!!) most time spent batting by anyone in a test series ever (i think)

others ...

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I was paying attention Matt .. come on chaps, lets get this list of records going ...

*Cook - highest score by any Test player at the Gabba (235*)
*Highest score by England ever in Australia (644)
*Nos. 2 and 5 on the list of largest ever innings totals by visitors to Australia (644, 620/5 dec)
*Only 4th time in history, and first ever time in Australia, a side has made more than 4 innings scores in excess of 500 in a series
*First time Australia has ever lost three matches by an innings defeat at home
*First time in history a side has had century partnerships for the 6th 7th and 8th wickets
* 9 England centuries, an Ashes record
* Over 2000 minutes at the crease for Cook (Essex Essex Essex !!!) most time spent batting by anyone in a test series ever (i think)

others ...

Third most time spent at the crease, although the two that spent longer were both 6 match series.

* Cook hit 82 boundaries, Collingwood hit 83 runs! It was the 25th most fours hit in a series by a batsman.
* Most humble pie eaten by Australia since 2009
* 13th most runs scored in a series by a batsman (Cook)
* Most Ashes wickets by an Englishman (Anderson) downunder since Snow in 1970/71
* Longest distance run-out by (Watson, 22 yards)

 

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

Cook and Strauss record 1st wicket partnership for England at Brisbane (188)
Cook and Strauss now England's highest scoring opening partnership overtaking Hobbs and Sutcliffe, and also 5th highest scoring in Test history
Cook and Trott record partnership for any wicket for England in Australia (329*), also 9th highest partnership for England
Strauss 110, Cook 235*, Trott 135*, only the 2nd time 1st 3 bats have scored tons for England
Cook 1,022 minutes and 371 runs without being dismissed are both now England records
Cook becomes only 6th Englishman to average over 100 in Ashes series of 3 games or more
Cook 2nd youngest person to reach 5,000 test runs
Prior 100 off 109 balls, fastest English Ashes century since I.T. Botham in 1981
Australia 3/2 worst start in a Test for 60 years
Australia 98, lowest score at MCG in Ashes test, and also lowest completed innings in a home Ashes Test since 1888.

 

[BLUEBLOOD]

* Over 2000 minutes at the crease for Cook (Essex Essex Essex !!!) most time spent batting by anyone in a test series this century :raspberry:

 

[number11]

It can be a problem, and variety is important, but I think this can be achieved in other ways:

1. better use of Collingwood for change of pace (and maybe now Bopara)
2. use of part-time spin options such as Capey
3. ensuring not all your seamers are the same - ie a tall bowler like Tremlett and a smaller skiddy bowler like a Gough or maybe a Shahzad
4. get the seamers to make better use of the crease to create different angles - facing Ntini wide of the crease as opposed to Pollock getting close to the stumps - and going both over and around the wicket

My preferred solution is actually the spinning all-rounder. If I was Australia I'd be looking at Cameron White and Steve Smith more than Beer and Docherty. For England Rashid is the big hope. Fortunately Swann offers something in the field and is a very good no.9 (but no higher) so it's maybe less of an issue, but I really think England will need to get more production out of that spot in the team against the division 1 sides (India, Sri Lanka, South Africa, Australia) than Swann as an orthodox spin bowler without a mystery ball is able to offer.

As for in practice, Australia's last two wins against England have both come with 4 men pace attacks and no spinner (I know they've lost with 4 men pace attacks, but they haven't won with an orthodox spinner for a long time). The West Indies managed OK in the 80s. South Africa did OK in the 90s.

What's harder to demonstrate is top teams that were successful with an orthodox spin bowler in the covered pitch era. My best examples would be England under Fletcher with Giles (only possible because Flintoff was an all-rounder) and maybe the current South African team with Harris (I'd suggest they were successful despite Harris than because of Harris, plus Kallis is a 4th bowler).

Australia with Warne/MacGill, Pakistan with Mushie and then Saqlain, Sri Lanka with Murali, India with Harbhajan are all examples of teams with spinners who turned it both ways.

I was thinking about this, especially in light of Collys retirement. They are suggesting Morgan will be a like for like replacement, and him at 6 with Bell going to 5 and Prior staying at 7 is a good batting line up with a lot of variation, but Morgan doesnt offer any overs. They could now play a 5 man attack with Broad coming in to the team so he, Bresnan and Swann fill 7,8,9, and we play 4 seamers and a spinner, or Rashid giving us 3 seamers and 2 spinners on a turning track. A good solution woudl be Samit Patel, who I think has the ability to bat at 6 in tests and bowl 10 overs a day of left arm spin and would give good balance. Shame he is a fat ******* with simingly no desire to put the work in to fulfill his potential and therefore he seems to be destined to be filed in the same cupboard as Ian Blackwell....

 

[MrB]

That's one of the things I love about cricket, the almost limitless potential for stats!!

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I was thinking about this, especially in light of Collys retirement. They are suggesting Morgan will be a like for like replacement, and him at 6 with Bell going to 5 and Prior staying at 7 is a good batting line up with a lot of variation, but Morgan doesnt offer any overs. They could now play a 5 man attack with Broad coming in to the team so he, Bresnan and Swann fill 7,8,9, and we play 4 seamers and a spinner, or Rashid giving us 3 seamers and 2 spinners on a turning track. A good solution woudl be Samit Patel, who I think has the ability to bat at 6 in tests and bowl 10 overs a day of left arm spin and would give good balance. Shame he is a fat ******* with simingly no desire to put the work in to fulfill his potential and therefore he seems to be destined to be filed in the same cupboard as Ian Blackwell....

That's a big cupboard.

That's one of the things I love about cricket, the almost limitless potential for stats!!

You should try baseball. In comparison cricket stats are amateurish.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Matt, how does Capey, who 360 runs at 60 with the bat (plus the key wicket of Michael Clarke at Adelaide), get lower marks than Strauss (scored 307 runs at 44 with the bat) and Swann (took 15 wickets at 40 with the ball)?

Fair point. KP's mark is a bit low; but if I were to be critical, his figures are flattered by that one blockbuster innings at Adelaide. Other than that, KP had a solid, rather than a spectacular series. I'll give him 16.

Strauss not only batted well, but he captained well (most of the time) too.

Similarly Finn (14 wickets@33 from 3 tests) has the same mark as Broad (2 wickets @81 from 2 tests) and less than Swann (15 wickets@40 from 5 tests)?

Quite simple, really: economy rates. Finn's were pretty poor at 4.3. Swann's were 2.7 and Broad's 2.3. Economy rates and strangulation is absolutely critical to how this England bowling attack works; they operate by hunting as a unit. It doesn't matter who gets the wickets - Australia gave their wickets away when they started flailing the bat because they got impatient at their failure to score runs. Finn being "rested" was actually quite convenient; again, if I were being harsh, I'd say he was dropped. His overall figures are very flattered by his six-fer at Perth; ultimately, he was OK rather than great. I reckon he's now 5th choice out of the current line-up of quicks (Anderson, Broad, Tremlett, Bresnan and Finn, in that order).

Maybe Swanny deserves nudging up - good in the field, and not bad with the bat too. It would put an awful lot of them on 17 points!

Incidentally, on the economy rates point, I think the press has been unkind to Hilfenhaus, who generally bowled very tightly. Unfortunately, he had to operate in tandem with Johnson, which means that pressure is never going to be built up, because it meant that the batters could bide their time against him, knowing that there'd be hay to make from Bad (or Ugly) Mitch.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Loving the stats, folks. I particularly like the one from the Sydney Test where, for the first time in Test cricket, the 6th, 7th and 8th wickets have all been century stands. God that must have been demoralising for them.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

You should try baseball. In comparison cricket stats are amateurish.

Nah. Give me cricket any day. Baseball is a minor interest sport, only played North & Central America (plus Japan), whereas cricket is played seriously on every continent bar Antarctica.

;)

 

[BrettieAngell]

Can this thread be pinned for like ever please??

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Nah. Give me cricket any day. Baseball is a minor interest sport, only played North & Central America (plus Japan), whereas cricket is played seriously on every continent bar Antarctica.

;)

My point was that baseball stats are better (which they are), not that baseball is better (which it isn't).

FYI baseball is also huge in places like Korea (Asia) and Venezuela (South America) as well as being played professionally in Australia (Australia) and Netherlands (Europe).

 

[MrB]

Back to back Ashes confirmed next time out.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2010-11/content/current/story/498610.html

 

[BLUEBLOOD]

Back to back Ashes confirmed next time out.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2010-11/content/current/story/498610.html

Cheers for the heads up B .. and good to shift the home series to an odd number to avoid clashing with future summer football tournaments