The age profile of the squad and rebuilding the squad

[kentblues]

I do not think Jack Wood has been given a fair crack of the whip, and I suspect Danny Waldron will not be either. Yes, I understand the management team constantly watch these players in training, but I am not sure training performance is always the best guide to performing effectively in the first team. First, we have all heard about players pulling up trees in training but somehow under-performing in the first team. Second, if a player is constantly overlooked when others continue to get picked (when they are playing badly) it clearly affects their confidence of the overlooked player and makes them feel they are going through the motions in training. Maher's comments after Wood's hat-trick against Hashtag is that he "must keep pushing" but he does not seem to be giving Wood much incentive to do so. Third, there is a danger that managers and coaches make up their mind about a player in training rather than actual performances in the first team. That explains to a certain extent why some players that do not get a look-in at certain clubs subsequently thrive and excel when they finally get first-team opportunities at other clubs.

If we had a B team he would push by scoring regularly- in training? Only to a much lesser extent. I have said before given our structure, and inability to provide game time, he and other in a similar position should either be out on loan or go.

 

[stewart]

i agree i dont believe Wood and to a certain extent Waldron have been given a fair shake , Mostly whan Wood has been given minutes its ot off position, im still of the mind given a run of games not just 10 minutes here and there he will show his true worth, im advocating 3 or 4 games has others have been given lately, as for Waldron the long injury he had didnt help his cause only time will tell in his casebut coming on as a sub for 10 minutes isnt what he needs, maybe as a starter for 60 minutes before being subbed would be of better value . Didnt this man give up a full time job and move away from where he was well liked to pursue his dream of full time professional football , Lets hope Maher and co who enticed him to do this give him the opportunity to shine .Wind i believe will very shortly displace GSM in the RB role, he is a better defenderand in a back 4 thats required.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Personally don't agree with any of this squad age profiling. At this level the teams who go up are the ones who bring in the best players regardless of age. Players are individuals and should be judged as such. There are far more significant attributes to consider than age of a player. It's just one factor to consider, it should never dictate how a squad is built.

Give me Spinner, Goater, Barrett when they were all past their best to win promotion over 3 players coming into their prime over the next few years and still be in the national league etc. Long term planning in the national league is pretty pointless when you can lose your best assets for £100k without a say in it.

Thank you - the L1 title side illustrates the point perfectly.

Spinner started just 15 matches for the L1 title side. Goater made 28 starts, scoring 11 goals. They were supplementary pieces.

The spine of the title side was
Barrett, 26yo played 45 games, scoring 3 goals; Eastwood, 23yo played 34+6 scoring 23 and Guttridge 23yo who started 41 games.

The others who started 30+ games were Flahavan, 28yo; Wilson 26yo; Maher 28yo; Gower 27yo.

All players around their prime. They were supplemented by some veterans (Prior, Edwards, Goater etc) and some youngsters (Lewis Hunt, Mitchell Cole, JCR etc).

I wouldn’t dispose of all the older players - although I seem to be in a minority on that on who would you keep thread where most seem to want to bin Bridge, Moncur, Husin, Miley etc - but I’d see them having a reduced role like Spinner, Goater etc did in our title winning side.

 

[WestyReturns]

Thank you - the L1 title side illustrates the point perfectly.

Spinner started just 15 matches for the L1 title side. Goater made 28 starts, scoring 11 goals. They were supplementary pieces.

The spine of the title side was
Barrett, 26yo played 45 games, scoring 3 goals; Eastwood, 23yo played 34+6 scoring 23 and Guttridge 23yo who started 41 games.

The others who started 30+ games were Flahavan, 28yo; Wilson 26yo; Maher 28yo; Gower 27yo.

All players around their prime. They were supplemented by some veterans (Prior, Edwards, Goater etc) and some youngsters (Lewis Hunt, Mitchell Cole, JCR etc).

I wouldn’t dispose of all the older players - although I seem to be in a minority on that on who would you keep thread where most seem to want to bin Bridge, Moncur, Husin, Miley etc - but I’d see them having a reduced role like Spinner, Goater etc did in our title winning side.

I'm going to stick with other factors were more important to the success such as technical ability and mindset of the individuals rather than the age of the player. Not disagreeing it's a factor but not major one for me.

 

[Fairport]

The likes of Waldron, Wood , Appiah Forson and Jeacock should be given 90 minutes at Brentwood to see what they can do.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I do not think Jack Wood has been given a fair crack of the whip, and I suspect Danny Waldron will not be either. Yes, I understand the management team constantly watch these players in training, but I am not sure training performance is always the best guide to performing effectively in the first team. First, we have all heard about players pulling up trees in training but somehow under-performing in the first team. Second, if a player is constantly overlooked when others continue to get picked (when they are playing badly) it clearly affects the confidence of the overlooked player and makes them feel they are going through the motions in training. Maher's comments after Wood's hat-trick against Hashtag is that he "must keep pushing" but he does not seem to be giving Wood much incentive to do so. Third, there is a danger that managers and coaches make up their mind about a player in training rather than actual performances in the first team. That explains to a certain extent why some players that do not get a look-in at certain clubs subsequently thrive and excel when they finally get first-team opportunities at other clubs.

FWIW a good mate of mine who watches our games home & away happens to agree with you.I'm not so sure myself.He's hardly set the DAZN livestream alight with his performances this season. ·According ro my mate this is because his sub .appearances have been as a striker playing upfront rather than on the wing, which he sees as his natural position Maybe.

 

[Barry.C]

He gets an average of 9 minutes to impress, and in most cases in games where we are doing our usual defensive hanging in. On a recent few but sparse opportunities, he has to my mind looked stronger and fitter and played on the right? He is noted as about the best crosser of a ball in our squad

If Wood gets released It wont surprise me if he does very well elsewhere and probably at a higher level

 

[kentblues]

It may, or may not, be a good time to refresh our minds re. the Brentford model that was considered the way forward at the time the management team - Kev, JS et al - were recruited. Note, the use of data ('moneyball") far from being at odds with this approach was in fact an important component, as were traditional recruitment methods, a B team replacing the academy and more. Of course teams have been using data ('moneyball") to a greater or lesser extent data for over a decade. It's not so new and shiny, but I guess, like all software, can be upgraded/reborn to provide an edge.

For what it’s worth I think this Case Study covers the Brentford model well, and it seems to me to be something we could still incorporate.Certainly worth a read to inform the discussion.

“What Can Data Do for a Football Club?" A Case Study of Brentford F.C. - AnalyiSport

Brentford F.C. are regularly described as a Moneyball club, but what can data do for a football club? We look at Brentford F.C.

analyisport.com

 

[stewart]

Playing a 4-3-3 system hopefully gives Wood a chance to impress playing wide on the right ,i would also play Walker on the left hand side Pebble in the centre of the 3 .you would then have Bonne and Waldron as subs . Team looking something like this .
-----------------Collin----------------
Wind ---- Taylor---Gubbins---------Ralph
------Coker----Morton----Husin-----
Wood---------Pebble----------Walker
Subs, Jeacock, Crowther, Kaf, Bonne, Waldron, Bridge, GSM.
I was going to put Bonne in the middle instead of Pebble as his heading ability is so much better than Pebbles ,but seems most here have a love affair with Pebble and a dislike of Bonne .

 

[Exiled Shrimper]

It may, or may not, be a good time to refresh our minds re. the Brentford model that was considered the way forward at the time the management team - Kev, JS et al - were recruited. Note, the use of data ('moneyball") far from being at odds with this approach was in fact an important component, as were traditional recruitment methods, a B team replacing the academy and more. Of course teams have been using data ('moneyball") to a greater or lesser extent data for over a decade. It's not so new and shiny, but I guess, like all software, can be upgraded/reborn to provide an edge.

For what it’s worth I think this Case Study covers the Brentford model well, and it seems to me to be something we could still incorporate.Certainly worth a read to inform the discussion.

“What Can Data Do for a Football Club?" A Case Study of Brentford F.C. - AnalyiSport

Brentford F.C. are regularly described as a Moneyball club, but what can data do for a football club? We look at Brentford F.C.

analyisport.com

Thanks for sharing. There’s a lot of interesting content in that article, and I would agree that there are aspects that we could still incorporate, but I don’t believe a ‘B’ team is one of them, at this stage.

At Championship level I can see how the model works in terms of bringing in players from Europe, using data, and that being more cost-effective than operating an Academy, and you can translate that to using data to help inform scouting from Step 2 and below in our case, before sending John Still and the gang out to watch players. In fact, that appears to be something that might be happening with suggestions around the new COSU member’s involvement.

The difference here is that we don’t operate an Academy and the club are not funding any youth development opportunities currently. The U19 and U18s, plus the new Centre of Excellence teams, are all being operated by the Community Foundation, so there are no savings to be made by implementing a ‘B’ team instead of an Academy structure. Every additional player you bring in is an additional expense, and then there’s potential additional expense for coaches, backroom staff.

That’s before you consider who the team are going to play without a games structure. As I mentioned previously, Brentford were able to line up friendlies against European opposition, or Premier League teams that probably wanted to take a look at their players. At best we could play U21 Development League teams like Peterborough or Colchester for similar reasons, but that’s dependent on gaps in their games programmes. And are friendlies against those teams lucrative enough for a player to join Southend instead of continuing to bang in the goals (or stop them) for Chelmsford or Billericay, when there are more eyes on them and they might make a multi-division jump?

In short, the concept of using data in recruitment is an interesting one and worth exploring (we’re probably already doing this), but I don’t think it’s contingent on operating a ‘B’ team to stockpile players.

 

[kentblues]

Thanks for sharing. There’s a lot of interesting content in that article, and I would agree that there are aspects that we could still incorporate, but I don’t believe a ‘B’ team is one of them, at this stage.

At Championship level I can see how the model works in terms of bringing in players from Europe, using data, and that being more cost-effective than operating an Academy, and you can translate that to using data to help inform scouting from Step 2 and below in our case, before sending John Still and the gang out to watch players. In fact, that appears to be something that might be happening with suggestions around the new COSU member’s involvement.

The difference here is that we don’t operate an Academy and the club are not funding any youth development opportunities currently. The U19 and U18s, plus the new Centre of Excellence teams, are all being operated by the Community Foundation, so there are no savings to be made by implementing a ‘B’ team instead of an Academy structure. Every additional player you bring in is an additional expense, and then there’s potential additional expense for coaches, backroom staff.

That’s before you consider who the team are going to play without a games structure. As I mentioned previously, Brentford were able to line up friendlies against European opposition, or Premier League teams that probably wanted to take a look at their players. At best we could play U21 Development League teams like Peterborough or Colchester for similar reasons, but that’s dependent on gaps in their games programmes. And are friendlies against those teams lucrative enough for a player to join Southend instead of continuing to bang in the goals (or stop them) for Chelmsford or Billericay, when there are more eyes on them and they might make a multi-division jump?

In short, the concept of using data in recruitment is an interesting one and worth exploring (we’re probably already doing this), but I don’t think it’s contingent on operating a ‘B’ team to stockpile players.

The point of the B team is to give game time to develop players- those not yet ready, the unpolished diamonds as it were whether from lower leagues or not. You are right “Moneyball” can still identify players we can use now in the squad. But we need to realise no B team means our ability to develop lower league talent is very limited. Training and sitting on the bench at best, does not represent serious development….regrettably…

 

[Exiled Shrimper]

The point of the B team is to give game time to develop players- those not yet ready, the unpolished diamonds as it were whether from lower leagues or not. You are right “Moneyball” can still identify players we can use now in the squad. But we need to realise no B team means our ability to develop lower league talent is very limited. Training and sitting on the bench at best, does not represent serious development….regrettably…

I’m not sure how much development would take place in friendly fixtures for Southend United ‘B’ as opposed to playing first-team football in National League South or the Isthmian League Premier Division, though?

Surely playing first-team football - either by staying at a player’s existing club, or by going out on loan, or preferably by exhibiting the ability, desire and confidence to play for our own first-team - is far superior to a ‘B’ team friendly at National League level?

The current coaching team have already demonstrated they can develop players; look at the improvement in Kensdale from when he arrived, in Coker (who had come through our own youth system), in Scott-Morriss, in Cardwell and even this season in Morton and Pepple (albeit the latter has come in from a higher level).

They won’t have a 100% success rate, but if I were a lower league player (like Wind was in the summer), I’d already think I have a decent chance of furthering my career by joining Southend United and I’ll get the opportunity to do that. I don’t think we need a ‘B’ team to aid recruitment.

 

[kentblues]

I’m not sure how much development would take place in friendly fixtures for Southend United ‘B’ as opposed to playing first-team football in National League South or the Isthmian League Premier Division, though?

Surely playing first-team football - either by staying at a player’s existing club, or by going out on loan, or preferably by exhibiting the ability, desire and confidence to play for our own first-team - is far superior to a ‘B’ team friendly at National League level?

The current coaching team have already demonstrated they can develop players; look at the improvement in Kensdale from when he arrived, in Coker (who had come through our own youth system), in Scott-Morriss, in Cardwell and even this season in Morton and Pepple (albeit the latter has come in from a higher level).

They won’t have a 100% success rate, but if I were a lower league player (like Wind was in the summer), I’d already think I have a decent chance of furthering my career by joining Southend United and I’ll get the opportunity to do that. I don’t think we need a ‘B’ team to aid recruitment.

The idea is /was the B team would play the same style and formation so players are best prepared to step in. Wood went out on loan, scored goals, it all meant nothing as he was playing in a different system. He has less than 2 hours on the pitch with us since he’s been here. Wind has played under 2 hours competitive football with us.
Our main focus now will be recruiting ready players from the same division and EFL - quite understandably.

 

[Exiled Shrimper]

The idea is /was the B team would play the same style and formation so players are best prepared to step in. Wood went out on loan, scored goals, it all meant nothing as he was playing in a different system. He has less than 2 hours on the pitch with us since he’s been here. Wind has played under 2 hours competitive football with us.
Our main focus now will be recruiting ready players from the same division and EFL - quite understandably.

Again, that makes sense, but I don’t think the benefits outweigh the issues with trying to operate a ‘B’ team at our level. Who is going to play them, who is going to pay them? You can source other teams playing different systems to send players out on loan; it’s also useful for players to experience playing in different styles and systems for their development.

We’re only halfway through the season, so there’s plenty of time for Wind to make an impression. If he’s good enough, he will; that’s been shown over the past three years. Implementing a whole additional team of players and staff simply to find out if Jack Wood is good enough to play for us doesn’t seem very sustainable to me (sorry, I think I’m stretching the point here and that probably not fair, but if a player isn’t good enough, we’ll also find that out). Regrettably I just feel Wood is not quite the right fit for us right now.

By the way, I do think there’s a real discussion to be had about whether the club goes down the ‘B’ team route or the Academy route at such time as we return to the EFL (although COSU have indicated they’ll go down the Academy route); I’m not discounting it completely, I’m just discounting while we’re in the National League.

I don’t think the finances or structures are there at this level to make it viable or sustainable to stockpile young players. So I feel we can utilise the data to bring in players that are ready or very close to being ready for first team football, but not to introduce a whole additional team.

 

[Holy Joe]

Again, that makes sense, but I don’t think the benefits outweigh the issues with trying to operate a ‘B’ team at our level. Who is going to play them, who is going to pay them? You can source other teams playing different systems to send players out on loan; it’s also useful for players to experience playing in different styles and systems for their development.

We’re only halfway through the season, so there’s plenty of time for Wind to make an impression. If he’s good enough, he will; that’s been shown over the past three years. Implementing a whole additional team of players and staff simply to find out if Jack Wood is good enough to play for us doesn’t seem very sustainable to me (sorry, I think I’m stretching the point here and that probably not fair, but if a player isn’t good enough, we’ll also find that out). Regrettably I just feel Wood is not quite the right fit for us right now.

By the way, I do think there’s a real discussion to be had about whether the club goes down the ‘B’ team route or the Academy route at such time as we return to the EFL (although COSU have indicated they’ll go down the Academy route); I’m not discounting it completely, I’m just discounting while we’re in the National League.

I don’t think the finances or structures are there at this level to make it viable or sustainable to stockpile young players. So I feel we can utilise the data to bring in players that are ready or very close to being ready for first team football, but not to introduce a whole additional team.

It's not a whole another team and staff though - it'd probably need a slightly bigger squad then we have now - but the 'B' match day squad would be first team players that aren't getting much game time supplemented with triallists, U19's etc to make up numbers. Staff - we have a management team of 3 plus JD - wasn't the original plan for JD to do it??

Quality and frequency of matches might be the bigger question and show stopper.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

The idea is /was the B team would play the same style and formation so players are best prepared to step in. Wood went out on loan, scored goals, it all meant nothing as he was playing in a different system. He has less than 2 hours on the pitch with us since he’s been here.

I think you’re missing a 0 there as he’s played just under 20 hours for us.

I think a B team is important but I think it’s less for reasons of development and more for reasons of sharpness. You want players to be match fit and not like Macauley Bonne who was playing a dozen first team matches to get fitness. Players are going to struggle to play at their best if they haven’t played for weeks on end and you want them to be in a position to succeed. Playing out on loan is preferable to B team football as it’s competitive with results mattering in a way they just don’t for B games.

Ultimately though Wood’s undoing won’t be playing in a different system but a lack of play strength. That’s something that isn’t system specific.

Maybe he’ll develop that if he goes out on loan for a year or two but he’s already played NLS without having improved in that regard.

 

[Exiled Shrimper]

It's not a whole another team and staff though - it'd probably need a slightly bigger squad then we have now - but the 'B' match day squad would be first team players that aren't getting much game time supplemented with triallists, U19's etc to make up numbers. Staff - we have a management team of 3 plus JD - wasn't the original plan for JD to do it??

Quality and frequency of matches might be the bigger question and show stopper.

With five substitutes permitted to be used now in the National League, there aren’t loads of first-team players not getting game time. The U19s play on a Wednesday, when a ‘B’ team would likely play fixtures, so would you take them out of a competitive development fixture for a ‘B’ team friendly? In addition to this, a number are out on loan/dual-registration gaining senior experience that way. Realistically you’d be looking at 10-15 additional players to operate a ‘B’ team properly.

A coach on a matchday wouldn’t be a problem, but you’d need more than one for training, plus strength and conditioning, potentially a second goalkeeping coach. That would all be added expense.

There’s an issue with players getting match sharp returning from injury or when they are brought into the club as @Yorkshire Blue has mentioned, but I don’t feel at this stage a ‘B’ team is the answer to that, or to recruiting new players.

 

[stewart]

all this is just conjecture what we really need to do is get out of this god forsaken league ASAP and to be honest the only way this is lkely to happen is for COSU to throw in some big dollars into the playing side and bringing in some EFL players as others have done, Our scouts should be now watching some of the premiershite u/23/0r 21s for players with talent who are likely to be released by their respective clubs come seasons end , this goes for Championship clubs also. In fact if JS was smart he would have an email address some off you supporters could use should you be watching some matches elsewhere and believe whoever has a player/s that show real ability and would be worth his scouts watching , maybe he already has i dont know. But sure as hell is on fire we certainly need to do something because what we have at present aint going to get us promoted .Whether thats because the players or coaches are not up to it i dont know.

 

[Barry.C]

I think you’re missing a 0 there as he’s played just under 20 hours for us.

I think a B team is important but I think it’s less for reasons of development and more for reasons of sharpness. You want players to be match fit and not like Macauley Bonne who was playing a dozen first team matches to get fitness. Players are going to struggle to play at their best if they haven’t played for weeks on end and you want them to be in a position to succeed. Playing out on loan is preferable to B team football as it’s competitive with results mattering in a way they just don’t for B games.mentioined

Ultimately though Wood’s undoing won’t be playing in a different system but a lack of play strength. That’s something that isn’t system specific.

Maybe he’ll develop that if he goes out on loan for a year or two but he’s already played NLS without having improved in that regard.

I thought in his brief loan spell with Tonbridge he was impressive and scored 8 goals
#
Banged in 6 in two hatricks at recent lower levcel , one viewed as stunning and barely been sent on pitch since. Kev wanting him to "push on. "Hard to push on exactly for the reasons you highlight, although he does look stronger. Hopefully Kevs explained clearly what push on means

I can only guess as others have Kev is not inspired enough by training events

 

[Strykr]

I thought in his brief loan spell with Tonbridge he was impressive and scored 8 goals
#
Banged in 6 in two hatricks at recent lower levcel , one viewed as stunning and barely been sent on pitch since. Kev wanting him to "push on. "Hard to push on exactly for the reasons you highlight, although he does look stronger. Hopefully Kevs explained clearly what push on means

I can only guess as others have Kev is not inspired enough by training events

If this is the case, and it seems to be then why is the kid still here? Its not good for anyone...