The age profile of the squad and rebuilding the squad

[Yorkshire Blue]

When Maher first came in he correctly identified that our average age was far too high and we didn’t have enough players in their prime years. He proceeded in jettisoning the likes of Coulson, Dunne, Atkinson, White, Ogogo, Murphy and bringing in players in or just about to enter their prime.

That was 3 years ago.

Key midfielders like Miley, Husin and Bridge who were in or about to enter their prime are now all 3 years older and have peaked. Gus is probably at that point now as well. Centrebacks typically peak a little later and Taylor and Ralph are playing some of their best football but that time is likely not far away.

That’s not to say that these players can’t still contribute but we can’t expect them to be quite the same players they were. We’re maybe talking about losing 1 or 2% but losing that 1 or 2% is the difference between getting to the ball first and winning a tackle cleanly or being there that split second later and giving the ref the chance to give a second yellow card. That’s the type of difference that changes matches as we saw last night.

If Maher is forced out it will be because when he lost Kensdale and Cardwell he used that budget on Moncur and Bonne, two players already on the downwards slide instead of investing in players still on an upwards path. It’s been no coincidence that our better performers in recent months have been the likes of Coker, Pepple and Morton, players still ascending.

Maher needs to transition to a younger team, a team still able to press with the same ferocity we did two years ago. A team with the legs not just to get forward but also still the pace to recover in time. Because once that pace fades you stop making the same attacking runs because you know you’ll be exposed. That leads to more conservative play. You want a team of mainly ascending players trying to make their reputation rather than a team of mainly descending players trying not to make mistakes that will lose them their reputation.

This isn’t an easy transition to make. Many managers are too loyal to players who have been good for them. Many managers become more conservative trying to hold onto what they have rather than forge new paths. Maher’s reputation is already as a conservative manager but this transition has started already. We’ve seen Jack Bridge play a much less prominent role this season. He’s gone from being the focus point of all our attacks to someone who is used in a variety of roles. I see this as a positive step. That’s how you want to use your experienced players.

We’ve also seen - although remarkably it’s hardly been commented on - the baton pass from Miley to Morton. It’s now Morton who is the fulcrum in the centre of midfield and Miley who has to fit around him and so gets parked on the left. Noor will return to the side Saturday but has been dropped for the first time in a long time. This is further evidence of the side evolving. The next step will be to work KAF in and bin Moncur who tellingly hasn’t featured the last two games after his horror show at Altrincham. Ideally Cav and Noor both wouldn’t be under contract through next season as well. Noor offers more flexibility so moving on Miley in the summer may make the most sense. He’s been a big player for us and that would be a ruthless move but maybe a necessary move.

On the right Wind should eventually replace GSM. It’s a pity Gus’ form has dipped as I’d have loved us to sell high on him in January. As we look to the future LWB becomes a priority position we need to target in January to get younger at. Both Ralph and Bridge are out of contract at the end of the season.

In defence we at least have Gubbins waiting in the wings but I’d like to get an athletic right centre-half in who can be developed (Kabongolo would have been ideal).

Up front we need to find an ascending forward. Someone big and mobile. We can still use Bonne from the bench in a reduced role; it doesn’t seem to be happening for Waldron and with his age profile it’s not likely to. He’d be one I’d be looking to move on in January and he’s out of contract in the summer. If the 4-3-3 continues that gives more of an opportunity for Jack Wood. I was a bit surprised he didn’t get a go last night to provide fresh legs.

 

[greyerfox]

Thought provoking stuff, YB. Thank you for the analysis. Perhaps Jan will see some inward movement of younger players. Word is that JS has been running the rule over some likely candidates this week.

 

[Ipswhrimp]

Like any monocausal argument, there are elements of truth here but also overstatement. Peak age is one consideration. But it is only one consideration. It reminds me of another poster here who was obsessed, earlier in the season, with squad size. Yes, it's a factor, but it's far from everything.

The argument ignores the importance of loyalty. How often do supporters talk about players who 'bleed blue' (and often of older players)? You won't get that if no player is here for more than two to three years. Look at the years of the Man Ure hegemony. Did Fergie bin off Giggs or Scholes when they hit 29? Was he rewarded for his loyalty?

Stability, identity and team-building are key to successful teams. You won't achieve that if you constantly chop and change. Why would players buy into an identity if they think they may well be out on their *rses two years hence?

If you get rid of every player on their 29th birthdays, you'll never have those old heads around that every dressing room needs. With the loss of a yard or a second here, better players (at any level) compensate with experience and better reading of the game.

And, no doubt, there are numerous other factors at play that I haven't thought of off the top of my head.

Shipping out players past peak age feeds into the short-termist thinking we see elsewhere (e.g., the calls for the managerial merry-go-round to be started up again). It's like a vision of football as Logan's Run. And look how that turned out.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Like any monocausal argument, there are elements of truth here but also overstatement. Peak age is one consideration. But it is only one consideration. It reminds me of another poster here who was obsessed, earlier in the season, with squad size. Yes, it's a factor, but it's far from everything.

The argument ignores the importance of loyalty. How often do supporters talk about players who 'bleed blue' (and often of older players)? You won't get that if no player is here for more than two to three years. Look at the years of the Man Ure hegemony. Did Fergie bin off Giggs or Scholes when they hit 29? Was he rewarded for his loyalty?

Stability, identity and team-building are key to successful teams. You won't achieve that if you constantly chop and change. Why would players buy into an identity if they think they may well be out on their *rses two years hence?

If you get rid of every player on their 29th birthdays, you'll never have those old heads around that every dressing room needs. With the loss of a yard or a second here, better players (at any level) compensate with experience and better reading of the game.

And, no doubt, there are numerous other factors at play that I haven't thought of off the top of my head.

Shipping out players past peak age feeds into the short-termist thinking we see elsewhere (e.g., the calls for the managerial merry-go-round to be started up again). It's like a vision of football as Logan's Run. And look how that turned out.

I’m not saying we need to sell everyone before their 29th birthday. I’m saying we need to transition to a younger XI. Giggs, Scholes etc played reduced roles as they aged. They were no longer the main men. Instead Fergie brought in young legs like a teenage Rooney and Ronaldo, a 24 year old Vidic, 26yo Stam, 25yo Carrick, 23yo Rio Ferdinand, 25yo van Nistlerooy etc who in time became the identity of the team.

Our stability and identity went when we lost Cardwell and Kensdale. We’re in a rebuild. We need to get younger. Part of that may be signing players to develop into starters like we did with Kensdale and Morton.

I’d keep the likes of Ralph, Bridge and Husin around. They can aid with the transition and mean we don’t need to play signings immediately but can gradually work them into the side.

 

[Target man]

An excellent well written post by @Yorkshire Blue that gives Chris Phillips a run for his money.

My only comment would be regarding Jack Wood. A really likeable lad and been mentioned by many, but he is not part of the plans and I've heard will be moved on when the opportunity arises, which reflects on his lack of selection. I'm sure others like @BoyWonder2 have heard the same.

I think it's fair on him, like Benton, who needed to get away to get game time.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

An excellent well written post by @Yorkshire Blue that gives Chris Phillips a run for his money.

My only comment would be regarding Jack Wood. A really likeable lad and been mentioned by many, but he is not part of the plans and I've heard will be moved on when the opportunity arises, which reflects on his lack of selection. I'm sure others like @BoyWonder2 have heard the same.

I think it's fair on him, like Benton, who needed to get away to get game time.

That wouldn’t be a surprise. He’s never quite taken his chance when the opportunity arose. There have been flashes but not sustained.

I think he needs to be physically stronger, maybe that comes in a couple of years but he probably needs to be playing to develop that.

 

[Mick]

Like any monocausal argument, there are elements of truth here but also overstatement. Peak age is one consideration. But it is only one consideration. It reminds me of another poster here who was obsessed, earlier in the season, with squad size. Yes, it's a factor, but it's far from everything.

The argument ignores the importance of loyalty. How often do supporters talk about players who 'bleed blue' (and often of older players)? You won't get that if no player is here for more than two to three years. Look at the years of the Man Ure hegemony. Did Fergie bin off Giggs or Scholes when they hit 29? Was he rewarded for his loyalty?

Stability, identity and team-building are key to successful teams. You won't achieve that if you constantly chop and change. Why would players buy into an identity if they think they may well be out on their *rses two years hence?

If you get rid of every player on their 29th birthdays, you'll never have those old heads around that every dressing room needs. With the loss of a yard or a second here, better players (at any level) compensate with experience and better reading of the game.

And, no doubt, there are numerous other factors at play that I haven't thought of off the top of my head.

Shipping out players past peak age feeds into the short-termist thinking we see elsewhere (e.g., the calls for the managerial merry-go-round to be started up again). It's like a vision of football as Logan's Run. And look how that turned out.

Eschewing words like hegemony and monocausal, I would simply say our squad lacks enough pace, athleticism and physicality. All qualities which combined with ability and shrewd tactical awareness are needed to get out of this division.

 

[Thundersley Blue]

That wouldn’t be a surprise. He’s never quite taken his chance when the opportunity arose. There have been flashes but not sustained.

I think he needs to be physically stronger, maybe that comes in a couple of years but he probably needs to be playing to develop that.

Thanks for your post, thought provoking . However, I am pretty sure that but for the embargo, Moncur and Bonne would not have been signed. I would think that Kevin hoped both would provide a short term answer. Moncur definitely hasn't and Bonne still might. If you remember we had just lost Cardwell and Kensdale plus 4 relatively long term injuries. Kevin didn't really have any other option, Moncur is a season long loan and Bonne has 1 year with a Club option.
I am expecting that by this time next year the side will have evolved and great care will have been taken to sign and release the right players.

 

[kentblues]

The challenge at the moment is young players with great potential can’t get any development and game time. The B team that was fundamental to all that hasn’t happened. Whilst it doesn’t we need younger players who are ready for and will get game time. Which in turn likely means proven young talent at our level at least. Likely more competition and investment but needs to happen.

Balance is important- for example a vocal leader at CB would go amiss..

 

[Holy Joe]

The challenge at the moment is young players with great potential can’t get any development and game time. The B team that was fundamental to all that hasn’t happened. Whilst it doesn’t we need younger players who are ready for and will get game time. Which in turn likely means proven young talent at our level at least. Likely more competition and investment but needs to happen.

Balance is important- for example a vocal leader at CB would go amiss..

What do we need to get the B team going? Is the B team just regular friendlies, not part of an organised league? So could we do it with first teamers that aren't getting many minutes, supplemented with U19's???

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

The challenge at the moment is young players with great potential can’t get any development and game time. The B team that was fundamental to all that hasn’t happened. Whilst it doesn’t we need younger players who are ready for and will get game time. Which in turn likely means proven young talent at our level at least. Likely more competition and investment but needs to happen.

Balance is important- for example a vocal leader at CB would go amiss..

Kacper Łopata was our most vocal leader at centre half and he was way less experienced than a John White.

I think there’s room to develop players off the bench, like we have with Morton and Wind and like we did with Kensdale

 

[kentblues]

What do we need to get the B team going? Is the B team just regular friendlies, not part of an organised league? So could we do it with first teamers that aren't getting many minutes, supplemented with U19's???

Good question- seems no one remembers to ask Kev or Justin or Tom so we don’t know. We do know it was clearly part of the model a la Brentford when the management team was recruited?

 

[kentblues]

Kacper Łopata was our most vocal leader at centre half and he was way less experienced than a John White.

I think there’s room to develop players off the bench, like we have with Morton and Wind and like we did with Kensdale

Yes my last comment was unrelated to experience - not sure Wind or Wood will feel they have got much in the way of development from the bench. Certainly if we try and rely on developing players from the bench it will restrict the number of bright young things brought in.

 

[Holy Joe]

Yes my last comment was unrelated to experience - not sure Wind or Wood will feel they have got much in the way of development from the bench. Certainly if we try and rely on developing players from the bench it will restrict the number of bright young things brought in.

I'd guess that Wind has 'just' moved from part time football, so has probably developed in the sense of adjusting to full time. But will soon need game time to push on.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Yes my last comment was unrelated to experience - not sure Wind or Wood will feel they have got much in the way of development from the bench. Certainly if we try and rely on developing players from the bench it will restrict the number of bright young things brought in.

Wood has clearly stagnated but I think the way we’ve handled Wind has been spot on: giving him time to adjust to full-time training, letting him learn how we set up and how his team mates play, a few appearances off the bench to get his feet wet and make him feel part of the squad so that when he made his full debut he didn’t look out of place.

We’ll need to increase the amount of football he’s playing in due course but I’d suggest he’s very much on track and going to plan.

Good question- seems no one remembers to ask Kev or Justin or Tom so we don’t know. We do know it was clearly part of the model a la Brentford when the management team was recruited?

I think it was a Stan thing more than necessarily a Kev thing. Once the u23s were dismantled there weren’t enough players for it to work and I suspect there isn’t the budget to expand the squad to the sort of size needed to run two teams. It does leave us with an issue for how to get players match fit.

 

[kentblues]

Wood has clearly stagnated but I think the way we’ve handled Wind has been spot on: giving him time to adjust to full-time training, letting him learn how we set up and how his team mates play, a few appearances off the bench to get his feet wet and make him feel part of the squad so that when he made his full debut he didn’t look out of place.

We’ll need to increase the amount of football he’s playing in due course but I’d suggest he’s very much on track and going to plan.


I think it was a Stan thing more than necessarily a Kev thing. Once the u23s were dismantled there weren’t enough players for it to work and I suspect there isn’t the budget to expand the squad to the sort of size needed to run two teams. It does leave us with an issue for how to get players match fit.

It does re returning from injury, and retaining match fitness and sharpness as well if all you do is sit on the bench- and makes the other part of the plan to take a punt on rough diamonds from lower leagues and develop them at best limited in possibility.

The structure was the plan when Kev and JS were brought in (I imagine very attractive to JS in his role). Whether they have been told it’s no longer the plan or just postponed I don’t know. But I do know any suggestion JS has failed in some way to identify sufficient lower league prospects is absurd in the circumstances.

 

[Exiled Shrimper]

It does re returning from injury, and retaining match fitness and sharpness as well if all you do is sit on the bench- and makes the other part of the plan to take a punt on rough diamonds from lower leagues and develop them at best limited in possibility.

The structure was the plan when Kev and JS were brought in (I imagine very attractive to JS in his role). Whether they have been told it’s no longer the plan or just postponed I don’t know. But I do know any suggestion JS has failed in some way to identify sufficient lower league prospects is absurd in the circumstances.

I’m not sure a ‘B’ team would attract rough diamonds to the club any more than sitting on the bench. An exciting prospect would be better off continuing to play regular football in National League South, or the Isthmian League, than to join us and play in the Essex Senior Cup and a few friendlies against the U23s at Leyton Orient or Charlton Athletic every now and then.

In the National League it’s a particularly flawed concept as the youth teams play midweek, rather than Saturday mornings in the EFL Youth Alliance, so if you are promoting them to make up the numbers, you’re taking them out of competitive development football. If you don’t, the cost of wages alone is prohibitive as you’d need 30-35 full-time professionals on the books. It just doesn’t seem sustainable to me.

In our current position, it’s not that Wind or Wood (who are generally the two players referenced that should be given more of a go) necessarily need more minutes in U23s/B team/Reserves; they need to do enough in training and any substitute appearances to show they should displace the players currently playing in their positions. In Wind’s case, that was a very high bar at the time he had his start instead of Gus Scott-Morriss at Rochdale.

I think the current management team want players to have to earn the shirt and show hunger and desire to represent Southend United. If you do that, you’ll break into the team (see Morton playing in Miley’s preferred position and Coker becoming a regular instead of Moncur, for example). Wood scored a hat-trick against Hashtag United in the Essex Senior Cup, but that doesn’t mean he’ll necessarily perform better than Walker, Pepple or Bonne in a first-team environment.

Brentford are always the club referenced when it comes to ‘B’ teams, but they were in the Championship when they implemented it and they decided to arrange friendlies against Premier League/European clubs that were probably more enticing to young prospects than participating in the U21 Development League. The Premier League have now enforced that they have to run an Academy under the Elite Player Performance Plan, so they now take part in that competition; they’re no different to any other Category 2 Academy.

In my opinion, aiming for Cat 2 Academy (once we’ve climbed the not insignificant hurdle of returning to the EFL) should be a key objective. At the top end, that gives you a proper games programme, so your fringe players are playing week-in, week-out in an U21 league where a limited number of overage players are permitted, so players returning from injury or who need match fitness get an opportunity to do just that. Our new training ground could provide a springboard to be able to do this, although we have just got rid of the rusting framework of the indoor dome required…

I would, nonetheless, be interested to hear COSU’s thoughts on the subject of player development.

Apologies for taking this thread off-topic. In terms of the original post, I think we will see evolution, not revolution, of the existing squad. It’s correct to suggest that some players may have reached their peak, although some will sustain it for a longer period than others. There have been signs that some of the more dependable players of the initial recruitment period (Husin, Miley, plus Bridge) may be declining, but even here there will be external factors, such as confidence, injury and team spirit.

 

[WestyReturns]

Personally don't agree with any of this squad age profiling. At this level the teams who go up are the ones who bring in the best players regardless of age. Players are individuals and should be judged as such. There are far more significant attributes to consider than age of a player. It's just one factor to consider, it should never dictate how a squad is built.

Give me Spinner, Goater, Barrett when they were all past their best to win promotion over 3 players coming into their prime over the next few years and still be in the national league etc. Long term planning in the national league is pretty pointless when you can lose your best assets for £100k without a say in it.

 

[kentblues]

I’m not sure a ‘B’ team would attract rough diamonds to the club any more than sitting on the bench. An exciting prospect would be better off continuing to play regular football in National League South, or the Isthmian League, than to join us and play in the Essex Senior Cup and a few friendlies against the U23s at Leyton Orient or Charlton Athletic every now and then.

In the National League it’s a particularly flawed concept as the youth teams play midweek, rather than Saturday mornings in the EFL Youth Alliance, so if you are promoting them to make up the numbers, you’re taking them out of competitive development football. If you don’t, the cost of wages alone is prohibitive as you’d need 30-35 full-time professionals on the books. It just doesn’t seem sustainable to me.

In our current position, it’s not that Wind or Wood (who are generally the two players referenced that should be given more of a go) necessarily need more minutes in U23s/B team/Reserves; they need to do enough in training and any substitute appearances to show they should displace the players currently playing in their positions. In Wind’s case, that was a very high bar at the time he had his start instead of Gus Scott-Morriss at Rochdale.

I think the current management team want players to have to earn the shirt and show hunger and desire to represent Southend United. If you do that, you’ll break into the team (see Morton playing in Miley’s preferred position and Coker becoming a regular instead of Moncur, for example). Wood scored a hat-trick against Hashtag United in the Essex Senior Cup, but that doesn’t mean he’ll necessarily perform better than Walker, Pepple or Bonne in a first-team environment.

Brentford are always the club referenced when it comes to ‘B’ teams, but they were in the Championship when they implemented it and they decided to arrange friendlies against Premier League/European clubs that were probably more enticing to young prospects than participating in the U21 Development League. The Premier League have now enforced that they have to run an Academy under the Elite Player Performance Plan, so they now take part in that competition; they’re no different to any other Category 2 Academy.

In my opinion, aiming for Cat 2 Academy (once we’ve climbed the not insignificant hurdle of returning to the EFL) should be a key objective. At the top end, that gives you a proper games programme, so your fringe players are playing week-in, week-out in an U21 league where a limited number of overage players are permitted, so players returning from injury or who need match fitness get an opportunity to do just that. Our new training ground could provide a springboard to be able to do this, although we have just got rid of the rusting framework of the indoor dome required…

I would, nonetheless, be interested to hear COSU’s thoughts on the subject of player development.

Apologies for taking this thread off-topic. In terms of the original post, I think we will see evolution, not revolution, of the existing squad. It’s correct to suggest that some players may have reached their peak, although some will sustain it for a longer period than others. There have been signs that some of the more dependable players of the initial recruitment period (Husin, Miley, plus Bridge) may be declining, but even here there will be external factors, such as confidence, injury and team spirit.

Bits I agree with, bits I don’t but well argued. I think the net is for a while don’t expect extremely under nourished talent from lower leagues to be much of a focus. Expect more from our league and EFL with an increasing element of “moneyball” (all be it I doubt it’s quite the revolution imagined). I don’t think the Jan whiteboard involves many in need of a good meal, bad thing or not.

 

[KiwiRob]

An excellent well written post by @Yorkshire Blue that gives Chris Phillips a run for his money.

My only comment would be regarding Jack Wood. A really likeable lad and been mentioned by many, but he is not part of the plans and I've heard will be moved on when the opportunity arises, which reflects on his lack of selection. I'm sure others like @BoyWonder2 have heard the same.

I think it's fair on him, like Benton, who needed to get away to get game time.

I do not think Jack Wood has been given a fair crack of the whip, and I suspect Danny Waldron will not be either. Yes, I understand the management team constantly watch these players in training, but I am not sure training performance is always the best guide to performing effectively in the first team. First, we have all heard about players pulling up trees in training but somehow under-performing in the first team. Second, if a player is constantly overlooked when others continue to get picked (when they are playing badly) it clearly affects the confidence of the overlooked player and makes them feel they are going through the motions in training. Maher's comments after Wood's hat-trick against Hashtag is that he "must keep pushing" but he does not seem to be giving Wood much incentive to do so. Third, there is a danger that managers and coaches make up their mind about a player in training rather than actual performances in the first team. That explains to a certain extent why some players that do not get a look-in at certain clubs subsequently thrive and excel when they finally get first-team opportunities at other clubs.