Zone Update Ron martin - non answered questions

[colonelnutter]

I suspect he has not answered you because he thinks u are a jumped up, self important ****, and judging by your posts he would be right.

Well if it goes tits up then we will have you and the "blinkered" 100%ers to thank.

With an astute businessman you have to provide for the worst but hope that does not happen.

I accept Mr Martin is a supporter as well but you seem oblivious to the prospect that once the cash cow has been exhausted he may be off to support his next development project.

The fact remains that a major conflict of interest potentially arises here between the developers maximising profits and SUFC supporters having ultimately to pay the cost back through turtnstile and season prices for long into the future.



How does RM run with the fox and hunt with the hounds ?

I take it you do not bother to take life insurance, or have a long term financial plan, because you are 100% sure that no unforeseen events will arise in your life that would place into jeopardy the well being of your dependents.

 

[J]

I suspect he has not answered you because he thinks u are a jumped up, self important ****, and judging by your posts he would be right.

Probably a bit like you i suppose.

Keep up the work Ian. TOP JOB

 

[fbm]

Ok.

Just what is Irate Ian trying to achieve? And what do we actually all want?

Are we anything to do with the running of the club? No.

If we get answers we like, what has that achieved? And in any event, will anyone believe RM?

There is a very good saying that goes "Never explain - your friends don't need it and your enemies won't believe you anyway."

So, notwithstanding that, what business is it of ours how RM runs the club? He runs it, not us, and he is obviously doing his best to run it properly. He is essentially a property developer. Of course he is going to make money for himself as well as the club.

So, back to the questions... if we don't like the answers, then what? Overthrow the directors? Rant on here? Have demonstrations at every match? Does the club need that at the moment?

Irate Ian, just take some time out to consider the actual point of what your doing. If you have the financial clout to take the club over, then fine; but I suspect, like me and every other fan, you can't do anything about it anyway.

So I suggest leave it to the people in charge and concentrate on supporting the team.

Don't worry about things you have no control over. You'll feel much better and less irate.

 

[Irate Ian]

No, the mods don't have to take responsibility.

They moved the thread to Fossets, because it was about, funnily enough, Fossets. Now, you say it's a graveyard, and only 5% of users read that forum. Maybe only 5% are interested? Maybe the reason you get more responses on the thread in this part of the forum is because people complain about the repetetiveness of it?

As for the £80M question, I'd say that's pretty much Fossets related, so was right to be moved too. I'm also sure that at some point this thread will also be moved.

The mods/owners spend time and money making this site for the likes of us. They have rules in place that, whether we agree with them or not, we must abide by if we wish to use this site. To say they're wrong, and continually post these threads in the main forum against their seeming wishes is not only bordering on arrogance, but is surely just making more work for them?

rant over!

Well please consider to have a re-think Swansea. Lets analyise the facts.

The last disclosed information is that the stadium build cost = £28 - £35M

RM goes to USA negotiating a loan via Morgan Stanley and they insist on 5% of seats being sold on Seat for Life basis, something RM had previously indicated not being in favour of [at my meeting 6.3.08].

This is despite his last share issue prospectus [closed prior to final planning decision] having suggested the opposite [his answer to that - he did not know what was in the prospectus and he had not read it or know what was specified in it - having been prepared by others !!!]

Unbelievable but true [fact is very often stranger than fiction].

Low and behold the loan sum sought, reported in Echo represents more than a doubling of the last reported upper build cost.

So the £80M question was about whether there was any belief that RM was seeking funding for other expenditure - such as buy out of other owners - see "Other Owners" threads - or to manipulate upward the price of a Seat for Life, which he was being forced to offer [against his stated wishes] - based upon a perceived black hole of + £45M on the last upper est. build cost.

If anything this massively increased borrowing requirement was a staight financial question as we are all in the dark about what exactly £80M is designed to be used for.

Certainly Mr Martin has not provided detail or any breakdown/itemisation and yes, I am not at all convinced that he has given any explanation.

It may be the mods were simply under the belief [as many others may also be] that all £80M was all for building of the stadium and hence their move of the thread, but these assumptions are exactly what the posting was designed to genereate comment/answers upon, or at least debated under general Chit Chat forum.

Mortgage fraud is based upon inflating and manipulting the paper price of property upward - as compared with the borrowed sum - I do not suggest fraud here but do not discount that Mr Martin might be inclined to set the price of the "Seat for Life" price to supporters at a level that is not necessarily proprtionate to the actual building cost - rather set it against the perceived & inflated building costs now being put out in the "Spin".

Bear in mind he was opposed but is being forced into this against his stated wishes and might be looking at ways to overcome the problem, by say doubling the perceived price of a "Seat for Life" by using the doubled borrowing sum, "Spun" to us in the press as the new benchmark figure, compared to the £28 - 35M last known figure.


Now I suppose our mods will want to move this thread to the graveyard as well, just because the thread contains references in it to inter-related subject of FF.


Hopefully not.


Hopefully FF itself will not also become the graveyard of SUFC.

 

[Crabby Shrimper]

Ok, i've had a re-think, and still stand by my post.

Ian, at the end of the day the sum is irrefutably linked with the cost of the new ground and associated retail outlets so is therefore a Fossets discussion.

As for the fossets forum being a "Graveyard" well, you just don't get it do you? It's only a quieter than this area because fewer people post there, which I would guess is because fewer people have an active interest. If this is the case, then basically you're moaning that not enough people find your posts interesting enough. well, here's news for you, that's life! I've posted things before that have been ignored, do i keep bumping them to the top? No, I respect that others don't have the same interest as me and I let it go. The cryptic cluse thread was a good example of this, i enjoyed it, but it fell off the front page. I respected this and didn't try "bumping" it

I've said before that I have no arguement with you over the questions you're asking, but quite frankly the way you're going about it on here's a little over the top, and is surely counter productive to you actually getting the information required.

 

[Irate Ian]

Ok, i've had a re-think, and still stand by my post.

Ian, at the end of the day the sum is irrefutably linked with the cost of the new ground and associated retail outlets so is therefore a Fossets discussion.

As for the fossets forum being a "Graveyard" well, you just don't get it do you? It's only a quieter than this area because fewer people post there, which I would guess is because fewer people have an active interest. If this is the case, then basically you're moaning that not enough people find your posts interesting enough. well, here's news for you, that's life! I've posted things before that have been ignored, do i keep bumping them to the top? No, I respect that others don't have the same interest as me and I let it go. The cryptic cluse thread was a good example of this, i enjoyed it, but it fell off the front page. I respected this and didn't try "bumping" it

I've said before that I have no arguement with you over the questions you're asking, but quite frankly the way you're going about it on here's a little over the top, and is surely counter productive to you actually getting the information required.

OK I am wasting my time here. You and some others will not listen to any amount of reason or the facts. Are you related to RM ?

I will consider to remove all the threads and go and support Stambridge Utd or maybe SZFC and you can have a quiet life once again - and all in the RM garden will be rosy forever.

Everyone lives happily ever after, sound like a fairy story ?

 

[class]

OK I am wasting my time here. You and some others will not listen to any amount of reason.

I will consider to remove all the threads and go and support Stambridge Utd or maybe SZFC.

Now now Mr Walker, don't throw your toys out of the pram!!

;)

 

[Irate Ian]

Now now Mr Walker, don't throw your toys out of the pram!!

;)

Becoming a little tiresome when one gives the facts - ignored and some other rubbish [Window] thrown into the air to deflect from the main issues.

 

[Crabby Shrimper]

Becoming a little tiresome when one gives the facts - ignored and some other rubbish [flotsome] thrown into the air to deflect from the issues.

I was thinking exactly the same, the point I was arguing was about the location of this thread, and the amount of new threads, not, and I've said this several times already, about the questions you're wanting answers to.

Oh, and by the way, one throws jetsam, Flotsam is lost as a result of the sea ;)

 

[Irate Ian]

I was thinking exactly the same, the point I was arguing was about the location of this thread, and the amount of new threads, not, and I've said this several times already, about the questions you're wanting answers to.

Oh, and by the way, one throws jetsam, Flotsam is lost as a result of the sea ;)

Yes your are right it is a Second World War term I was seeking - should have said: "Window" - look that one up Swansea

 

[Crabby Shrimper]

Yes your are right it is a Second World War term I was seeking - should have said: "Window" - look that one up Swansea

Tin foil like substance dropped from the air to give the impression to primitive radars that an invasion force was approaching from a false area. Similar in many ways to the more modern version used against missiles, Chaff. No need to look it up thankyou ;)

 

[Irate Ian]

Tin foil like substance dropped from the air to give the impression to primitive radars that an invasion force was approaching from a false area. Similar in many ways to the more modern version used against missiles, Chaff. No need to look it up thankyou ;)

Or similar in modern day terms to Spin and deflection off topic of the thread.


QED

 

[stevie_G_G_G]

Uh oh - old boys war stories coming up!!!

 

[Irate Ian]

Uh oh - old boys war stories coming up!!!

Now then young man, I was minus 13 on VE day, so not that old, but history holds some important lessons, as does the future.

 

[Crabby Shrimper]

Now then young man, I was minus 13 on VE day, so not that old, but history holds some important lessons, as does the future.

:offtopic:




:p

 

[Irate Ian]

As a point of interest have you emailed or tried to call RM to ascertain if his promised answers will be forthcoming?

Also aren't Private Messages exactly that?

Please refer to the original thread: Yes [6.3.2008] & The Future + various up-dates.

I recall sending RM a courtesy message after we had secured play off place to indicate that as he had not replied by then, I accepted that on the pitch matters were then of greater importance/priority and I would not expect his reply until after our season had ended.

McScriven is just about omnipresent on SZ & RM himself is a possible member in cognito. RM is aware of the discontent amongst the natives.

He is also abundantly aware that he has neglected to seek to answer any of the questions, as he committed to do.

 

[weststander]

Well please consider to have a re-think Swansea. Lets analyise the facts.

The last disclosed information is that the stadium build cost = £28 - £35M and has always been close to this amount (o/site 3/10/06 - the stadium element will cost upwards of £25million excluding the hotel complex) no real difference here

RM goes to USA negotiating a loan via Morgan Stanley and they insist on 5% of seats being sold on Seat for Life basis, something RM had previously indicated not being in favour of [at my meeting 6.3.08]. Do you know that Morgan Stanley have insisted on this as i dont remember reading anywhere that this is the case, please correct me if i am wrong

This is despite his last share issue prospectus [closed prior to final planning decision] having suggested the opposite [his answer to that - he did not know what was in the prospectus and he had not read it or know what was specified in it - having been prepared by others !!!]

Unbelievable but true [fact is very often stranger than fiction].

Low and behold the loan sum sought, reported in Echo represents more than a doubling of the last reported upper build cost. Not quite true the official site on the 7/3/08 quotes a figure of just over £50million and had £80 million been cofirmed by Ron ?? It could be a bit of sensationalist journalism by round up figures. If this figure is correct is there a simple way of explaining why its has increased thos much e.g. credit crunch, higher fuel prices etc etc.

So the £80M question was about whether there was any belief that RM was seeking funding for other expenditure - such as buy out of other owners - see "Other Owners" threads - or to manipulate upward the price of a Seat for Life, which he was being forced to offer [against his stated wishes] - based upon a perceived black hole of + £45M on the last upper est. build cost.
As far as i am aware and please correct me if i am wrong but Ron/Martin Dawn bought out the other owners of the club (Delancy) before we asked for planning permission, which was the reason for its delay in the first place so how can he be uing some of the money to pay them off ???

If anything this massively increased borrowing requirement was a staight financial question as we are all in the dark about what exactly £80M is designed to be used for. Excuse the flippancy but, to build the stadium and complex ???

Certainly Mr Martin has not provided detail or any breakdown/itemisation and yes, I am not at all convinced that he has given any explanation. Nor does he have to and i truly belive that 90/95% of the clubs support dont want to know they just want to sit in a shiny new stadium watching their favourite football team without knowing how every penny was spent building it.

It may be the mods were simply under the belief [as many others may also be] that all £80M was all for building of the stadium and hence their move of the thread, but these assumptions are exactly what the posting was designed to genereate comment/answers upon, or at least debated under general Chit Chat forum. The £80 million is to build the Fossetts Farm Stadium and Complex so isnt that really where the thread should be ???

Mortgage fraud is based upon inflating and manipulting the paper price of property upward - as compared with the borrowed sum - I do not suggest fraud here but do not discount that Mr Martin might be inclined to set the price of the "Seat for Life" price to supporters at a level that is not necessarily proprtionate to the actual building cost - rather set it against the perceived & inflated building costs now being put out in the "Spin".
Not knowing much about mortgage fraud i cant comment, but by the fact that you have mentioned it, even under caveat, suggests that you think this is what is going on. Again i dont know but perhaps you should be a little more careful when you bandy these words around.

Bear in mind he was opposed but is being forced into this against his stated wishes and might be looking at ways to overcome the problem, by say doubling the perceived price of a "Seat for Life" by using the doubled borrowing sum, "Spun" to us in the press as the new benchmark figure, compared to the £28 - 35M last known figure.
Seat for Life was mentioned as one way of raising income, it is very common in new stadia in the USA and as Ron spoke to an American Bank i'm not really suprised that it was mentioned. It has never been said that this WILL happen and certainly no figures have been published so how can you know that the seat for life price has doubled ???

Now I suppose our mods will want to move this thread to the graveyard as well, just because the thread contains references in it to inter-related subject of FF.


Hopefully not.


Hopefully FF itself will not also become the graveyard of SUFC.

I hope and believe that the new stadium will eventually be of great benefit to the club and its aspirations, however, i can see a tough few years not only until we get the stadium but for the first 5 or even 10 when we move in.

 

[Irate Ian]

Your highlighted questions followed by my answers

Q: "and has always been close to this amount (o/site 3/10/06 - the stadium element will cost upwards of £25million excluding the hotel complex) no real difference here"

A: The difference between say £35M and £80M is the topic of the thread

Q: Do you know that Morgan Stanley have insisted on this as i dont remember reading anywhere that this is the case, please correct me if i am wrong

A: This was reported in the Evening Echo I believe under quote from RM himself


Q: Not quite true the official site on the 7/3/08 quotes a figure of just over £50million and had £80 million been cofirmed by Ron ?? It could be a bit of sensationalist journalism by round up figures. If this figure is correct is there a simple way of explaining why its has increased thos much e.g. credit crunch, higher fuel prices etc etc.

A: Are you RM's spokesperson and know this to be a fact ? A seat in any typical current build stadium is on all last known industry figures quoted at upper estimate = £1,600. Hence 1,600 x 22,000 = £35.2 million, so where does £50 or £80M come from ?

That was the purpose of the thread, to seek clarification and your "credit crunch/fuel prices" does not account for up to £45M black hole.

Q: correct me if i am wrong but Ron/Martin Dawn bought out the other owners of the club (Delancy) before we asked for planning permission, which was the reason for its delay in the first place so how can he be using some of the money to pay them off ???


A: Are you taling about SUFC or Fossett Park development site ?

RM simply says more or less that, but the ultimate ownership of FF is not transparent from UK company records. The trail goes to Cyprus, and a company called: Jetbury Ltd, who have a reg office in Jersey but are incorporated in Cyprus.

Have not yet asked a contact/agent to go along to the registry in Cyprus, as had expected openness/disclosure to not be a problem to RM [if the assumptions made in your question were true], but it seems not to be the case, hence suggest you re-issue the question to RM himself.


Q: Excuse the flippancy but, to build the stadium and complex ???


A: Exactly, so why is it "Spun" in relation to an article concerning SUFC, as RM has not made it clear what or whether any "complex" buildings are to be part of SUFC revenue streams .. viz the request for clarity of the wider details & questions in that repsect [non answered].


Q: Nor does he have to and i truly belive that 90/95% of the clubs support dont want to know they just want to sit in a shiny new stadium watching their favourite football team without knowing how every penny was spent building it.

A: Depends on your viewpoint and if the management want to carry grass roots supporters along and satisfy their concerns against their high ticket prices etc being as a conseqnce of the club being ripped of by the developers and the development costs/rental terms under any future lease.


Q: The £80 million is to build the Fossetts Farm Stadium and Complex so isnt that really where the thread should be ???


A: No. The question is financial, pertaining to how this figure has been arrived at and what it actually relates to as we know the sum is far in excess of the projected cost of stadium as publicised.

Suppose to that extent £35M can be attibributed to FF out of ther £80M so the mods could say they are 44% correct to t/f to FF or 56% wrong.

Either way it does not promote healthy debate by moving to the graveyard.



Q: Not knowing much about mortgage fraud i cant comment, but by the fact that you have mentioned it, even under caveat, suggests that you think this is what is going on. Again i dont know but perhaps you should be a little more careful when you bandy these words around.


A: Do not seek to "suggest" anything of the sort, or put words into my mouth or your slant/interpretation on my statements.

I always choose my words carefully but thank you [not] for the advice.



Q: Seat for Life was mentioned as one way of raising income, it is very common in new stadia in the USA and as Ron spoke to an American Bank i'm not really suprised that it was mentioned. It has never been said that this WILL happen and certainly no figures have been published so how can you know that the seat for life price has doubled ???


A: I don't but by the same token, neither do you. That is the reason that grass roots supporters need input/answers upon these further questions or
issues of concern.



Q: I hope and believe that the new stadium will eventually be of great benefit to the club and its aspirations, however, i can see a tough few years not only until we get the stadium but for the first 5 or even 10 when we move in.


A: No question raised.

 

[sufcintheprem]

I hope and believe that the new stadium will eventually be of great benefit to the club and its aspirations, however, i can see a tough few years not only until we get the stadium but for the first 5 or even 10 when we move in.

Indeed. Liverpool have recently announced plans to delay their stadium building, even considering the amount of Champions League and Premiership money they have. This was blamed on the current economic client. Arsenal have built a new stadium and costs relating to this have been widely put about as a reason for the reluctance to spend as much as their rivals

It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that a club such as ours is going to find it harder to construct a stadium. Taylor Wimpey's massive recent losses show some of the strain construction faces right now.

 

[Irate Ian]

Indeed. Liverpool have recently announced plans to delay their stadium building, even considering the amount of Champions League and Premiership money they have. This was blamed on the current economic client. Arsenal have built a new stadium and costs relating to this have been widely put about as a reason for the reluctance to spend as much as their rivals

It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that a club such as ours is going to find it harder to construct a stadium. Taylor Wimpey's massive recent losses show some of the strain construction faces right now.

Is it possible that 5,000 SUFC supporters could be found to each raise £7,000 or 7,000 to raise £5,000 each = £35M.

With added investment from local companies, feel £50M should be also achievable.

If RM were minded it coud be done, in fairly short time IMO, just needs the will and determination, if it is such a struggle to raise it through the financial marketplace.