RIP Tony Benn

[steveo]

In that case I'll ask my question again:

Not really. As his socialist views - the ownership bit - didn't seem applicable to him, I would have expected him to take his full pension which as far as I know he did. If this wasn't enough he could have fallen back on the income form the dozen or so books he published.
Whatever way you look at it, as some stage his wealth was contradictory to his socialist viewpoint.
As I said before "I've got my wealth, now everyone should share theirs"
I certainly don't blame the bloke for making his fortune from the capitalist society he despised- good luck to him.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Not for sure but he moved to sheltered accommodation presumably due to his ailing health and advancing years.

That is correct.

Not really. As his socialist views - the ownership bit - didn't seem applicable to him, I would have expected him to take his full pension which as far as I know he did. If this wasn't enough he could have fallen back on the income form the dozen or so books he published.
Whatever way you look at it, as some stage his wealth was contradictory to his socialist viewpoint.
As I said before "I've got my wealth, now everyone should share theirs"
I certainly don't blame the bloke for making his fortune from the capitalist society he despised- good luck to him.

What is it about the phrase "a man of principle" that you don't understand exacly?

Your argument (or rather non-argument) here is similar to the criticisms levelled at Karl Marx back in the day,whose writings were often subsidised by loans from his wealthy co-writer Frederich Engels.

 

[steveo]

That is correct.



What is it about the phrase "a man of principle" that you don't understand exacly?

Your argument (or rather non-argument) here is similar to the criticisms levelled at Karl Marx back in the day,whose writings were often subsidised by loans from his wealthy co-writer Frederich Engels.

Some confusion here about principles Barna as well as some confusion about the definition of socialism. It appears to me he was happy to spout about his beliefs and principles while wildly ignoring them and making himself a fortune.

Why are you quoting stuff about Karl Marx, the Godfather of communism? Not doing so well worldwide these days is it?

 

[C'mon you Shrimpers]

I think one reason Tony Benn is liked is that he was never apart from a short time in the 60s actually running things. Pontificating from the sidelines is pretty easy. It's like the footballer who's always a sub. Things would be so much better if he was given a chance. The reality is they would not have been.
Not a man I would want running anything that mattered.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Some confusion here about principles Barna as well as some confusion about the definition of socialism. It appears to me he was happy to spout about his beliefs and principles while wildly ignoring them and making himself a fortune.

Why are you quoting stuff about Karl Marx, the Godfather of communism? Not doing so well worldwide these days is it?

You were taken to task about your evident confusion about the difference between the various types of socialism and communism itself by another poster.

The example I gave about Karl Marx, (not a quote,btw),was to point out that left-wing writers have always been dogged by the sort of criticisim that you have levelled at Tony Benn regarding his house ownership.

Are you against inherited wealth now?

(As far as I'm aware), TB had no other source of income at the time of his death other than his (generous) parliamentary pension and earnings from his writing.

 

[steveo]

You were taken to task about your evident confusion about the difference between the various types of socialism and communism itself by another poster.

The example I gave about Karl Marx, (not a quote,btw),was to point out that left-wing writers have always been dogged by the sort of criticisim that you have levelled at Tony Benn regarding his house ownership.

Are you against inherited wealth now?

(As far as I'm aware), TB had no other source of income at the time of his death other than his (generous) parliamentary pension and earnings from his writing.

I'm no longer confused about different types of socialism. It's quite clear that Socialists believe in the type that suits their bank balance at the time.

Also, I am certainly not against inherited wealth, although I am not a big fan of inheritance tax especially if the inheritance relates to funds that have already had tax paid on them.

We can agree that Tone was worth a fortune when he died. The question you seem to be missing/ignoring is how can someone with so much wealth believe in non ownership of property and other people sharing wealth, but I suppose that depends on how you define socialism. Would you be comfortable in that position?

The post from Cmon you shrimpers is possibly the best one on here but I see you refrained from commenting on that one.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I'm no longer confused about different types of socialism. It's quite clear that Socialists believe in the type that suits their bank balance at the time.

Also, I am certainly not against inherited wealth, although I am not a big fan of inheritance tax especially if the inheritance relates to funds that have already had tax paid on them.

We can agree that Tone was worth a fortune when he died. The question you seem to be missing/ignoring is how can someone with so much wealth believe in non ownership of property and other people sharing wealth, but I suppose that depends on how you define socialism. Would you be comfortable in that position?

The post from Cmon you shrimpers is possibly the best one on here but I see you refrained from commenting on that one.

Only just seen his post.

He makes a good point-about TB only being in government for a short time (he was also a Minister under Wilson in the 70's,btw),which was also widely picked up in the obits. last week.

Meanwhile,I suggest you provide some evidence for your claim that TB believed in the "non-ownership of property."

 

[steveo]

Only just seen his post.

He makes a good point-about TB only being in government for a short time (he was also a Minister under Wilson in the 70's,btw),which was also widely picked up in the obits. last week.

Meanwhile,I suggest you provide some evidence for your claim that TB believed in the "non-ownership of property."

I don't have any. I assumed as a socialist he would have believed in socialism as defined by the Oxford Dictionary:

A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole


However, LondonBLiue rightly pointed out there are a number of different views of what Socialism actually is which helped me in my conclusion it can be defined as whatever version suits your personal wealth.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I don't have any. I assumed as a socialist he would have believed in socialism as defined by the Oxford Dictionary:

A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole


However, LondonBLiue rightly pointed out there are a number of different views of what Socialism actually is which helped me in my conclusion it can be defined as whatever version suits your personal wealth.

FYI,Tony Benn was a democratic socialist.

Furthermore, there is nothing in your OED quotation which precludes the private ownership of property,which of course,is not part of "the means of production,distribution and exchange."

 

[steveo]

Yes I know Barna but I had you going for a minute.
Don't you have any work to do today?

 

[londonblue]

Not really. As his socialist views - the ownership bit - didn't seem applicable to him, I would have expected him to take his full pension which as far as I know he did. If this wasn't enough he could have fallen back on the income form the dozen or so books he published.
Whatever way you look at it, as some stage his wealth was contradictory to his socialist viewpoint.
As I said before "I've got my wealth, now everyone should share theirs"
I certainly don't blame the bloke for making his fortune from the capitalist society he despised- good luck to him.

But you don't know what his views were. You're just speculating.

 

[steveo]

But you don't know what his views were. You're just speculating.

Yes I know but I couldn't keep Barna going without speculating.

 

[londonblue]

Yes I know but I couldn't keep Barna going without speculating.

So, your whole argument on this thread has been aimed at winding one person up?

In that case there is no need for me to debate with you any further. You've lost credibility in my eyes.

 

[steveo]

So, your whole argument on this thread has been aimed at winding one person up?

In that case there is no need for me to debate with you any further. You've lost credibility in my eyes.

Not all of it. Would you not agree that most people view one of the main ingredients of socialism to be a wealth sharing idea? If so does it not worry you slightly that a man with those views can be extremely wealthy?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Yes I know Barna but I had you going for a minute.
Don't you have any work to do today?

Just been to the doctor's actually.Did some prep.this morning and teach this afternoon.No rest for the proletariet.:winking:

 

[Toby Esterhase]

Burn in Hell AWB.

 

[dingleydangley]

Burn in Hell AWB.

Steady on. He may have struggled at Spurs but he's still young.

 

[Toby Esterhase]

I seem to have upset a few champagne socialist fanboys. Whatever happened to capitalist football fans?

 

[Swiss Tony]

I seem to have upset a few champagne socialist fanboys. Whatever happened to capitalist football fans?

Alive and well in the West stand Toby.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Alive and well in the West stand Toby.

Surely if you're a real capitalist you'd be in the East (or even in the DB)? :winking: