Pullman you berk!

[Hotman]

Right that will be all of your neighbours, oh and you must include all of your family in this ..everybody that goes near a school, everybody that walks along the seafront at the same time as you...Oh and Cinemas that will be a huge problem....Get real.

If I could have my own way, that is what would happen. I know it is unrealistic, and impractical, but in an ideal world with no restrictions or limitations (cost / practicalities etc) I'd want every one checked.

I can't believe that any parent of a young child would think differently, and prefer for people around their kids not to be checked??

It's the same as how parents of daughters wouldn't want their kids having sex too early - in an ideal world you'd have a pill that stops male sex drive and magically stops when your little princess is ready - if this was available, all parents would want it.

Child abusers / paedophiles are the lowest of the low, and anything that can reduce instances of child abuse (even by 1 instance) is worthwhile in my eyes.

 

[MK Shrimper]

And the thing is, the vast majority of abuse happens from someone the kids already know and trust.

From Answers.com (American stats).

Parents were the abusers in 77% of the confirmed cases, other relatives in 11%. Sexual abuse was more likely to be committed by males, whereas females were responsible for the majority of neglect cases. More than 1,000 United States children died from abuse in 1996.

 

[canveyshrimper]

But an author like Pullman unlike a caretaker isn't a person a child will see every day.

However I largely agree that children should be protected as far as possible, I can't be certain that the current CRB check is the best method. A sad fact of current legislation is that proud parents aren't able to film their kids in school plays or sports days etc. As ever with legislation introduced by this government there are too many grey areas for me.

 

[Hotman]

Carl, if there was no cost involved then I wouldn't have an issue, but I paid out for my son to have one which the college never even submitted yet he was still sent out on work experience to schools. Explain that to me.

In my experience, they can take absolutely ages to process and if they come back with the name spelt wrongly then you start all over again. You also have to have a separate check done for each different place where they apply because they are non transferable, so for instance, I have one done as an Essex County Council employee at one school then have to have another one done as a school Governor at a different one. I think they also have to be renewed every 3 years as well still. It's just a way of adding revenue to a corrupt Government as far as I'm concerned and I'd rather have a comprehensive check done that was applicable to all working/voluntary practices.

I agree, the process and system is ****. It should be a part of the passport application, perhaps at £2 additional cost. All offences should be listed on the passport. Anyone without it should be denied employment and benefits.

The current system is stupid as it has to be done for someone else.

Another route would be an online database that the end user, not the "suspect", can access? Checking you have the right person is difficult, but i imagine that's the same as verifying the person CRB'd is the person in front of you.

 

[Hotman]

And the thing is, the vast majority of abuse happens from someone the kids already know and trust.

From Answers.com (American stats).

Parents were the abusers in 77% of the confirmed cases, other relatives in 11%. Sexual abuse was more likely to be committed by males, whereas females were responsible for the majority of neglect cases. More than 1,000 United States children died from abuse in 1996.

Good application of the Pareto (80/20) principle there - which I'd admire for most areas. However, procedures against child abuse should eliminate 100% whereever possible, not 80% (or in this case 88%).

 

[Hotman]

But an author like Pullman unlike a caretaker isn't a person a child will see every day.

However I largely agree that children should be protected as far as possible, I can't be certain that the current CRB check is the best method. A sad fact of current legislation is that proud parents aren't able to film their kids in school plays or sports days etc. As ever with legislation introduced by this government there are too many grey areas for me.

As I've said before, the procedure is an arse, but the reason makes it worthwhile.

 

[Hotman]

p.s. I should probably add that my opinion on this is absolutely unwavering, despite any opposing argument - in fact I feel so strongly about this one of my non-exec roles is as a director of a not-for-profit company devoted to improving various standards in an industry related to children, largely focusing on child protection, health and safety policies etc.

 

[Cricko]

Ok..this is the way I see it.....when I was a kid the only people you worried about were scout leaders etc...The Internet has changed things big time...I would not for one minute say these horrible people were not about then but they were singular..the internet brought those people that thought along the same perverse lines together and they became "as one" with a common disgusting aim.....I also blame the media for jumping on any bandwagon they can....my kid ok he is older now could never have walked in the woods with his mates or played out in some park until 8pm....The freedon they have been denied is being played out of all proportion...If you want to blame somebody, blame the government for letting all these perverts and the unfortunate people ( Runwell) back out on the streets or in local care , then they moan about how this sort of thing is rising....I do not for one minute have a problem with people having a CRB check when mixing with or in a childrens environment on a long term basis or applying for a job to work in some capicity with them..I just hate this Big Brother attitude that you are told even if you read a book to kids, that you must conform to these new rules.

Ps: and a good point you made H .Wtf ..why cant parents record there own kids at sport day.

 

[Hotman]

Having just read the article it is apparent that the local authority is profiteering from the CRB check - that is far over what an enhanced check should cost.

 

[OldBlueLady]

p.s. I should probably add that my opinion on this is absolutely unwavering, despite any opposing argument - in fact I feel so strongly about this one of my non-exec roles is as a director of a not-for-profit company devoted to improving various standards in an industry related to children, largely focusing on child protection, health and safety policies etc.

Which explains a lot......

However, as MK rightly says, the majority of child abuse comes from within the child's own family circle and no CRB in the world is ever going to pick that up.

Having sat through a very rigorous training session on appointments within schools, I'm not entirely convinced that a CRB would necessarily reveal what you would want it to anyway. It would appear that many people who are accused, manage to negotiate any such record away.

 

[Hotman]

Which explains a lot......

However, as MK rightly says, the majority of child abuse comes from within the child's own family circle and no CRB in the world is ever going to pick that up.

Having sat through a very rigorous training session on appointments within schools, I'm not entirely convinced that a CRB would necessarily reveal what you would want it to anyway. It would appear that many people who are accused, manage to negotiate any such record away.

Correct, CRB wouldn't pick up family circle abuse, however that's where training and awareness of teachers / other staff around kids can help identify issues early.

What the CRB does is:

a) act as a deterrent, and restrict the budding paedo to just thinking about it rather than acting on their urges (which is still disgusting, but no child is harmed); and

b) focuses on the 12% outside of the family circle, which - even if only 12 instances (I'm sure that there is far more than 100 instances of child abuse) - is worthwhile.

 

[Hotman]

As for what a CRB reveals - in an ideal world you'd want to know if the "suspect" has ever, or will ever touch a little child inappropriately.

As that is impractical, a criminal history is probably the closest we'll get.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Correct, CRB wouldn't pick up family circle abuse, however that's where training and awareness of teachers / other staff around kids can help identify issues early.

And you follow the procedures and report it following guidelines and maybe, if you're lucky, 3 months down the line someone at Social Care will pick up on it. The whole system is completely fallible.

 

[Hotman]

And you follow the procedures and report it following guidelines and maybe, if you're lucky, 3 months down the line someone at Social Care will pick up on it. The whole system is completely fallible.

To be fair I work with much less bureaucratic organisations so if something is identified it is dealt with - an eye opener on this thread is the cost and unnecessary hurdles that is put into the school system, which I am sure could be resolved.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Ok..this is the way I see it.....when I was a kid the only people you worried about were scout leaders etc...The Internet has changed things big time...I would not for one minute say these horrible people were not about then but they were singular..the internet brought these people that thought along the same perverse lines together and they became "as one" with a common disgusting aim.....I also blame the media for jumping on any bandwagon they can....my kid ok he is older now could never have walked in the woods with his mates or played out in some park until 8pm....The freedon they have been denied is being played out of all proportion...If you want to blame somebody, blame the government for letting all these perverts and the unfortunate people ( Runwell) back out on the streets or in local care , then they moan about how this sort of thing is rising....I do not for one minute have a problem with people having a CRB check when mixing with or in a childrens environment on a long term basis or applying for a job to work in some capicity with them..I just hate this Big Brother attitude that you are told even if you read a book to kids, that you must conform to these new rules.

Ps: and a good point you made H .Wtf ..why cant parents record there own kids at sport day.

Good post John, I do feel that we of a similar age grew up in a more "innocent" era. Having said that if someone was deemed as "odd",(I don't think peadophile was in the language then) we were warned to avoid him. Or as often happened take the **** from a safe distance. But in the main we were allowed to roam free and only come home when we were hungry.

Parents are now really between a rock and a hard place, kids should be allowed to stand on their own two feet, and should have a degree of independence. However parents are also scared to let their kids out of their sight.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Parents are now really between a rock and a hard place, kids should be allowed to stand on their own two feet, and should have a degree of independence. However parents are also scared to let their kids out of their sight.

It's not just that though Harry, a lot of parents think it is completely their right to come in anywhere and demand "justice" for their sweet, little innocent cherub, who in reality is the biggest little **** in school. We face abuse on an almost daily basis from parents who have taken on board their "rights" and who now feel free to accuse teachers of all sorts and impart their prejudices to their kids - hence teachers, young males at that, are leaving the profession in droves.

I'm glad Carl is realising the cost implications, there was a time when I held three separate CRB checks and if you work in a little preschool then laying out for more than two or three of those on an annual basis (bearing in mind renewals would be on a rolling programme) would cripple you. I honestly have no problem with the system in theory BUT it needs to be realistic and consistent.

 

[Hotman]

It's not just that though Harry, a lot of parents think it is completely their right to come in anywhere and demand "justice" for their sweet, little innocent cherub, who in reality is the biggest little **** in school. We face abuse on an almost daily basis from parents who have taken on board their "rights" and who now feel free to accuse teachers of all sorts and impart their prejudices to their kids - hence teachers, young males at that, are leaving the profession in droves.

I'm glad Carl is realising the cost implications, there was a time when I held three separate CRB checks and if you work in a little preschool then laying out for more than two or three of those on an annual basis (bearing in mind renewals would be on a rolling programme) would cripple you. I honestly have no problem with the system in theory BUT it needs to be realistic and consistent.

I'm pretty sure that the CRB's we source are approx £36 each, which is still too expensive for what is effectively a few clicks on a keyboard.

I still don't see why it can't be integrated into a passport, or dare I say it ID card.

Also the fact that it has to be requested by someone rather than being a universal pass has been a constant bone of contention of mine.

 

[Cricko]

I still don't see why it can't be integrated into a passport, or dare I say it ID card.

No No and er No .....surely a passport is enough, mine even has a chip in it...ID cards I would tell them where to stuff them.

 

[OldBlueLady]

I'm pretty sure that the CRB's we source are approx £36 each, which is still too expensive for what is effectively a few clicks on a keyboard.

I still don't see why it can't be integrated into a passport, or dare I say it ID card.

Also the fact that it has to be requested by someone rather than being a universal pass has been a constant bone of contention of mine.

At that rate, that's the basic, not enhanced which is a prerequisite for anyone working with children on a daily basis. It also reveals very little and is only basically saying you have no criminal convictions....but let's not forget that criminal convictions can have nothing whatsoever to do with risk to children.

 

[canveyshrimper]

It's not just that though Harry, a lot of parents think it is completely their right to come in anywhere and demand "justice" for their sweet, little innocent cherub, who in reality is the biggest little **** in school. We face abuse on an almost daily basis from parents who have taken on board their "rights" and who now feel free to accuse teachers of all sorts and impart their prejudices to their kids - hence teachers, young males at that, are leaving the profession in droves.

While I can't really condone the use of the cane, slipper, whatever as a form of physical punishment it certainly acted as a deterrent when in my schooldays. The added benefit in those days was that we did not have the compensation culture that is so prevalent these days. My old dad would never have dreamed of fronting up at the school protesting on my behalf. More likely he would have told me to stand on my own two feet.

I do realise that times do change and at risk of sounding like my parents, quite often they don't change for the better.