Publish and be damned

[Berrichonne shrimper]

You know it wasn't even Voltaire who said that, right?

I think Will Self nails it, especially the bit about HL Mencken's definition of good journalism:

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/will-self-charlie-hebdo-attack-the-west-satire-france-terror-105[/QUOT

Of course not,i know nothing about nothing and im just looking for friends but i do know its a saying that i like and rings true to the way i try to live my life.

 

[Pubey]

You know it wasn't even Voltaire who said that, right?

I think Will Self nails it, especially the bit about HL Mencken's definition of good journalism:

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/will-self-charlie-hebdo-attack-the-west-satire-france-terror-105

Of course not,i know nothing about nothing and im just looking for friends but i do know its a saying that i like and rings true to the way i try to live my life.

Sorry Tony I didn't meant to come across as harsh - I like the quote too. It's one of the most famous 'wrongly attributed quotes' ever. It's funny that people continue to quote it as being Voltaires.

 

[Berrichonne shrimper]

Sorry Tony I didn't meant to come across as harsh - I like the quote too. It's one of the most famous 'wrongly attributed quotes' ever. It's funny that people continue to quote it as being Voltaires.

Well go on berty big bollox who said it so i can laugh along with the funniest joke ever.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

Something has been bothering me over the Charlie Hebdo cartoons that have caused to much grief of late...and why I believe in a free press and OBVIOUSLY condemn any hostile action in relation to them or any other piece of journalism/art, I have to say that some of the cartoons have gone beyond the pale - all very well printing a cartoon of Mohammed crying, but raised on all fours with his arse & genitals showing? If that's French satire, then I'm missing the joke - it's obviously out there to offend, and causing offence is simplistic and easily done.

Apparantly CH has also depicted black men as monkeys and has been accused of anti-semetism but the free thinking world has leapt behind it to show support.

And before we get into it, there is no such thing as free speech - would any British newspaper print lurid cartoons of the Royal family for example.

And again.....I condemn any hostile action and the terrorist acts completely.

Thoughts?

Good point and I've got to say it doesn't sit well with me either. However, I don't speak french and remember this is left thinking publication. Pictures are one thing but it has to be taken in all it's contents.

 

[Toby Esterhase]

Well go on berty big bollox who said it so i can laugh along with the funniest joke ever.

Evelyn Beatrice Hall, writing about Voltaire. Great punchline, I'm sure you'll agree.

 

[Berrichonne shrimper]

Evelyn Beatrice Hall, writing about Voltaire. Great punchline, I'm sure you'll agree.

dONT KNOW ABOUT THE PUNCHLINE BUT THE SURNAME IS AS COOL AS FECK.CHEERS tOBY.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Bollox to not offending people.....every race, colour, creed, religion should be scrutinised, poked fun at, challenged etc etc why should Islam be exempt.....If we start completely pandering to this kind of demand then that's the slippery slope.

Agreed. but what I've seen of CH is just simplistic insults through racial stereotypes. Hardly Private Eye now is it?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Good point and I've got to say it doesn't sit well with me either. However, I don't speak french and remember this is left thinking publication. Pictures are one thing but it has to be taken in all it's contents.

Is it left thinking?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Is it left thinking?

Yes.Think Viz.

Most old timers (like me) would say that Le Canard enchaîné is a much better satirical daily paper whereas CH is a weekly magazine.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Yes.Think Viz.

Most old timers (like me) would say that Le Canard enchaîné is a much better satirical daily paper whereas CH is a weekly magazine.

Viz is hardly hard hitting political satire - as funny as it was (is?) it's more student humour.

 

[ooh-andy-ansah]

Bollox to not offending people.....every race, colour, creed, religion should be scrutinised, poked fun at, challenged etc etc why should Islam be exempt.....If we start completely pandering to this kind of demand then that's the slippery slope.

Exactly and the Mayor of Rotterdam, a Muslim himself has it spot on..... http://bit.ly/1u3xpMC

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Viz is hardly hard hitting political satire - as funny as it was (is?) it's more student humour.

You're right.But it's still about the best UK comparison I think.Private Eye, for example,is much more like Le Canard Enchainé.

(When I said CH was left wing it is, only the sense that Viz was vaguely left).

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Look, I really haven't got the time to explain as fully as I would wish, nor provide the research in an attempt to justify my actions. I did publish the new front page of CB on the 'Paris Massacre' thread and although not yet damned it has had rather a silent response.
I'm not a reader of CH, although it was a strong part of my wife's culture as a student. Many would claim that it never really grew up (in a nice way) from the sixties and seventies, even though it's main illustrators were into their seventies and eighties. It has always lampooned what they would regard as the pompous and hypercritical, with politicians and religion, (Musulman, Catholicism, Judiasm) getting their treatment.
I understand the very fine line beween what some would see as humour and others as racism but in the Republic I live these issues get settled in a court of law, not by terrorists that take the law into their own hands. From what I remember, a number of years ago, CH was taken to court for re-publishing the Danish Muhammad cartoons that caused offence to a number of people. CH won the case.
As I've stated, France is a Republic and the importance of 'Republican values' should not be underestimated. Here, from the start of the 20thC, there is a clear distiction between the state and religion and the maintenence of laîcité (secularism) in both education and politics is firmly ahered to. This may explain why the freedom of expression is so important and whilst the right to practice any religion is strongly defended, no religion has the right to impose itself on the values of the Republic. Thus you generally don't go into public places (schools) wearing religious ensigna (crosses, couples, veils). In my wife's Lycée some girls tried to come with veils (to test the water), when the recent law was passed ................they were sent home. To show you how strong the feeling is here, there were many eyebrows raised when Sarkozy (as President of France) visited the Vatican to see the Pope and equally when the Pope came to address the European Parliament.
Although still British by nationality, the values of the Republic have rubbed off on me during my, nearly 26 years of living here. I was working in Toulouse on Saturday and as the march of 120,000/180,000 passed right by me, I felt more french than I have ever felt during my time of residence here. The shock of the events last week greatly disturbed me and I had no compunction to put up the image I did, though I can perhaps understand that for some 'back home' it would be a rather sensitive issue. In essence, many, including myself, saw the assault against CH not just an assault on the freedom of the press but an assault at the very heart of the French Republic and that may explain why the reaction has been so strong.
On the issue of racism/terrorism, I'm hearing that the french comic Dieudonné was arrested in the early hours of this morning, apparently for posting on the social media 'Je suis Charlie Coulibaly.'

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Look, I really haven't got the time to explain as fully as I would wish, nor provide the research in an attempt to justify my actions. I did publish the new front page of CB on the 'Paris Massacre' thread and although not yet damned it has had rather a silent response.
I'm not a reader of CH, although it was a strong part of my wife's culture as a student. Many would claim that it never really grew up (in a nice way) from the sixties and seventies, even though it's main illustrators were into their seventies and eighties. It has always lampooned what they would regard as the pompous and hypercritical, with politicians and religion, (Musulman, Catholicism, Judiasm) getting their treatment.
I understand the very fine line beween what some would see as humour and others as racism but in the Republic I live these issues get settled in a court of law, not by terrorists that take the law into their own hands. From what I remember, a number of years ago, CH was taken to court for re-publishing the Danish Muhammad cartoons that caused offence to a number of people. CH won the case.
As I've stated, France is a Republic and the importance of 'Republican values' should not be underestimated. Here, from the start of the 20thC, there is a clear distiction between the state and religion and the maintenence of laîcité (secularism) in both education and politics is firmly ahered to. This may explain why the freedom of expression is so important and whilst the right to practice any religion is strongly defended, no religion has the right to impose itself on the values of the Republic. Thus you generally don't go into public places (schools) wearing religious ensigna (crosses, couples, veils). In my wife's Lycée some girls tried to come with veils (to test the water), when the recent law was passed ................they were sent home. To show you how strong the feeling is here, there were many eyebrows raised when Sarkozy (as President of France) visited the Vatican to see the Pope and equally when the Pope came to address the European Parliament.
Although still British by nationality, the values of the Republic have rubbed off on me during my, nearly 26 years of living here. I was working in Toulouse on Saturday and as the march of 120,000/180,000 passed right by me, I felt more french than I have ever felt during my time of residence here. The shock of the events last week greatly disturbed me and I had no compunction to put up the image I did, though I can perhaps understand that for some 'back home' it would be a rather sensitive issue. In essence, many, including myself, saw the assault against CH not just an assault on the freedom of the press but an assault at the very heart of the French Republic and that may explain why the reaction has been so strong.
On the issue of racism/terrorism, I'm hearing that the french comic Dieudonné was arrested in the early hours of this morning, apparently for posting on the social media 'Je suis Charlie Coulibaly.'

It's still a moot point, however, as to whether British "multiculturalism" has worked better (or not) than France's "integration" policies.

As someone who's lived in France much longer than I have,what's your take on this?

 

[Razam]

The attacks were wrong and unjustified, and the attackers were plain murderers.
That said, let's not kid ourselves that Charlie Hebdo care about Freedom of speech/expression. The case of Sine is proof. The sacked him after he refused to apologise for drawing Sarkozy Jr. converting to Judaism for profit. After he was sacked, The French government prosecuted him for Anti-Semitism. Where is the Freedom of Expression gone?
Other Anti-Christian & Anti-Republic have also been banned/censored!!

imo CH is just a magazine that is just intent on offending for a cheap laugh. Yes, I am not Charlie, as I do not think offending people for no other reason than for a laugh is OK. I am happy to accept there may be things that offend me, but if its done with the intention of making a point of discussion/change/debate etc... there's no problem as the offence caused it not solely for the intention of offending (like CH). I think that it's widely accepted that people shouldn't be racist etc. proves this point.
I hope what I said make sense...writing this in a bit of a rush lol.

 

[Berrichonne shrimper]

Tis a tad strange that you are not allowed to say or write anything anti-jewish in this great country,freedom of speech to me is just that the freedom to say anything anywhere anytime and here you can do that as long as its not anti-jewish or holocaust denial as thats ilegal.

 

[londonblue]

The attacks were wrong and unjustified, and the attackers were plain murderers.
That said, let's not kid ourselves that Charlie Hebdo care about Freedom of speech/expression. The case of Sine is proof. The sacked him after he refused to apologise for drawing Sarkozy Jr. converting to Judaism for profit. After he was sacked, The French government prosecuted him for Anti-Semitism. Where is the Freedom of Expression gone?
Other Anti-Christian & Anti-Republic have also been banned/censored!!

imo CH is just a magazine that is just intent on offending for a cheap laugh. Yes, I am not Charlie, as I do not think offending people for no other reason than for a laugh is OK. I am happy to accept there may be things that offend me, but if its done with the intention of making a point of discussion/change/debate etc... there's no problem as the offence caused it not solely for the intention of offending (like CH). I think that it's widely accepted that people shouldn't be racist etc. proves this point.
I hope what I said make sense...writing this in a bit of a rush lol.

You're getting on to very shaky ground here. I think there are just as many instances where attacks on Jews (in the press) are considered freedom of speech also. There was even one this week where a BBC journalist tried to justify the murder of the hostages in the supermarket because of what is going on in Gaza. The collective responsibility argument is anti-semitism in the same way that blaming all Muslims for ISIS etc is anti-Islam. (I'm not sure what the term is, but actually given that Islam is also a semitic religion, could it not be seen as anti-semitism also, albeit against Muslims rather than Jews?)

However, I don't think it is helpful trying to prove a point by comparing one religion against another. My view is that people are very quick to claim their rights (such as the freedom of speech), but aren't quite so quick to take on the responsibilities that go with them, such as actually trying to ensure you don't offend people. With every right comes a responsibility, and people, IMO, can't really expect one if they're not prepared to accept the other.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Tis a tad strange that you are not allowed to say or write anything anti-jewish in this great country,freedom of speech to me is just that the freedom to say anything anywhere anytime and here you can do that as long as its not anti-jewish or holocaust denial as thats ilegal.

But there was a holocaust,wasn't there? (At least that what I thought, after visiting concentration camps in Dachau and Auschwitz).

 

[Berrichonne shrimper]

But there was a holocaust,wasn't there? (At least that what I thought, after visiting a couple of concentration camps, in Dachau and Auschwitz).

You know what troll fisher i believe there was but some believe there was not and that is their choice right or wrong its their choice.

 

[Beefy]

I think humour sometimes doesn't translate overly well and that's never more the case than French into English. The French are a weird sort and this type of satire, which is deep-rooted in French society and goes back centuries in various forms, doesn't always cross over well into our culture and language.

I try to come at this whole topic by thinking about what would have happened had this been an Islamist attack on the great modern satire of Anglo-American culture - South Park (and not Viz as Barna is claiming...). South Park have done everything that CB have done short of post-Danish Cartoon Saga depictions of Mohammed. They ridicule Jews every week, Christians most weeks, they've depicted Buddha doing drugs, they had our Queen blow her brains out, they take the **** of every race, colour and creed. If this had happened at South Park's offices would we be saying that it was their own fault? I wouldn't be.