Promotion and relegation 2019/20 season

tallboyblue · May 22, 2020

Green Wizard said:
I'm not in agreement that any football club should be bailed out from outside. Football from top to bottom have lived in a dream world for many years, that includes supporters, players, owners, agents and now everything is coming crashing down. There is no one to blame but themselves. With the Premiership in their little bubble I have my doubts about whether anything will change for the better soon. Hope I am being pessimistic and will be proved wrong.

Bigger they are harder they fall. That would make me laugh if one of those got into big trouble.

GBJ · May 22, 2020

Billy Bests boot laces said:
I'm more concerned what our punishment will be for late payment of wages & fielding an illegitimate player ( albeit for only a few mins )?.
IF it's a points deduction ( who knows? ), def dont that yardstick at start of next season, when-ever that will be?.

Spot on.

I don’t want Southend to be relegated either, but let’s be clear here, we’re up against a self-serving entity, that has the power to dish out punishment arbitrarily, and if we tried to do them on a technicality, they’re likely to move the goalposts & compound our fate another way.

So if we did launch a lawsuit, (which by the way, on the surface would appear pretty airtight, seeing as we’re only 16 adrift with 27 to play for) here’s the key things to remember;

- We fielded an ineligible player against Lincoln

- We failed to pay the players wages on more than one occasion - even after being told (allegedly) by the PFA, that even a single reoccurrence would see them push for a points deduction against us.

The three points we earned against Lincoln, will be stripped from us, which would leave us 19 adrift, with 27 to play for.

Alongside that, would be the arbitrary decision on whether we should receive further punishment for fielding that ineligible player.

Then we get onto the problem of non-payment of wages, which I know a points-deduction is unprecedented, but then these are unprecedented times, with what would be unprecedented lawsuits.

So, what’s the odds that we’re hit with a 6-point deduction for wages, and a 3-point deduction for the ineligible player? Leaving us 28 adrift, with 27 to play for.

Legal action gone, along with a hefty chunk of money.

It’s all ifs and buts, of course, but my personal opinion is that the EFL are utter ****houses, who aren’t going to bend over for a lawsuit. Especially one that can be avoided with a few arbitrary decisions against our club.

camden shrimper · May 22, 2020

Not remotely wishing to turn this into an argument, but I don't think it is a case of just rolling over and accepting relegation.

We are not in the leagues good books, failure to pay staff and players on time, constant HMRC issues and fielding an illegible player are all things that will be investigated further and COULD result in penalties being imposed.

There has to be a resolution to the season, yes, just cancelling it is one but as that is the one option that they don't seem to be entertaining then it will be something other than that. Therefore to sue when we already have the EFL anti us doesn't bode well for a point reduction free season.

With every level of respect, I don't think everyone on this board has necessarily watched us week in and week out. It's not been fun, for the first season as a fan, I started in 87, I didn't look forward to games. Staying in this division, potentially with a possible points deduction if we do fills me with dread. (Maybe I am being too logical with this idea that if we back them into a corner legally they will find another way to upstage us). If it is as poor as this season on the pitch with that jeopardy hung over us then only us hardcore will go and it won't be enjoyable again.

Over simplifying perhaps but I just feel that a run at a lower level without a points deduction, even the most cynical will see they won't relegate us haven't not finished a season AND give us a points deduction, with teams we stand a chance of beating and a revitalised crowd feeling that we have an injustice to right and can play enjoyable football without fear of being spanked each week. Where we can play youngsters who are that much more likely to not be out of their depth. In my memory the league we are if it is a choice between 1 and 2 in doesn't hugely affect the attendance - but knowing the team and being hammered every week is what kept people away, people are going to be skint post Covid lockdown too and won't pay out if it's more of the same.

That's where I am coming from. Suing the league feels like a) we will rattle the cage too much considering the sanctions that could be imposed upon us, b) using any historic metric of comparison we literally wouldn't have survived, go back through the thread, people have started to think that a break where players haven't trained together has somehow lead to us having a greater team, c) we are skint, where is this money to mount a legal challenge against them coming from and d) I am confident we won't win the case anyway.

It's not being defeatist it's being a realist.

Happy to contest that there are assumptions in here but this is an opinions forum and those are mine.

Kestrel · May 22, 2020

Green Wizard said:
I'm not in agreement that any football club should be bailed out from outside. Football from top to bottom have lived in a dream world for many years, that includes supporters, players, owners, agents and now everything is coming crashing down. There is no one to blame but themselves. With the Premiership in their little bubble I have my doubts about whether anything will change for the better soon. Hope I am being pessimistic and will be proved wrong.

I blame a lot of this at Sky and other subscription sport channels.

After many years of subscribing to Sky and BT for live sport, COVID-19 has given me a kick up the backside and have reviewed my expenditure. I was paying over 130 pound a month !!

Sports have been cancelled and i'm not down to a package costing 47 quid. Have i missed the sport ? No. Am i enjoying spending my cash on something better ? Absolutely !!

MK Shrimper · May 22, 2020

I imagine Ron is ****ting himself at the thought of relegation. There's a very good chance we'll start 2020/21 on a sizeable minus points footing. Relegation again to non-league will scupper his stadium dreams.

OldBlueLady · May 22, 2020

Wasn't around much yesterday so I didn't see this news until late yesterday evening, beyond angry at this. However much we deserve to be relegated this season, to have it done on some paper exercise is unfair. Football is not a predicted science especially at this time of the season when shocks often occur. I hope a club better placed to do so than us challenges (Tranmere?).

kentblues · May 22, 2020

MK Shrimper said:
I imagine Ron is ****ting himself at the thought of relegation. There's a very good chance we'll start 2020/21 on a sizeable minus points footing. Relegation again to non-league will scupper his stadium dreams.

No there isn't - however much we may wish it so, doesn't make it so.

yogi bear up the cagire · May 22, 2020

Kestrel said:
I blame a lot of this at Sky and other subscription sport channels.

After many years of subscribing to Sky and BT for live sport, COVID-19 has given me a kick up the backside and have reviewed my expenditure. I was payingover 130 pound a month!!

Sports have been cancelled and i'm not down to a package costing 47 quid. Have i missed the sport ? No. Am i enjoying spending my cash on something better ? Absolutely !!

God!

I watch premiershite over here but only because I pay rather less than you for the pleasure. It comes as a small additional monthly expenditure on my internet provider. (for the moment!)

MK Shrimper · May 22, 2020

kentblues said:
No there isn't - however much we may wish it so, doesn't make it so.

You know that how exactly? Twice non payment of wages, one illegible player. I don't wish it at all but I don't stick my fingers in my ears and hope it'll go away quietly.

Medway Blue · May 22, 2020

MK Shrimper said:
I imagine Ron is ****ting himself at the thought of relegation. There's a very good chance we'll start 2020/21 on a sizeable minus points footing. Relegation again to non-league will scupper his stadium dreams.

As somebody has said above, relegating is before the season is complete and when we still have a mathematical (albeit small) chance of staying up, and then adding a points deduction NEXT season, would be ultimate EFL ****housery and you’d like to think it’s better than that. I’d hope it will be treading extremely carefully after the atrocious way that it handled the Bury and Bolton situations and I doubt it would want to get the negative press and associated accusations of trying to kill one of its member football clubs again.

Ricey · May 22, 2020

OldBlueLady said:
Wasn't around much yesterday so I didn't see this news until late yesterday evening, beyond angry at this. However much we deserve to be relegated this season, to have it done on some paper exercise is unfair. Football is not a predicted science especially at this time of the season when shocks often occur. I hope a club better placed to do so than us challenges (Tranmere?).

Their vice chairman was extremely vocal about it on Twitter yesterday.

yogi bear up the cagire · May 22, 2020

MK Shrimper said:
You know that how exactly? Twice non payment of wages, one illegible player. I don't wish it at all but I don't stick my fingers in my ears and hope it'll go away quietly.

Haven't they been talking very recently about making non payment of wages a points deductible offence? If that is so then, unless they make it retrospective, we should be OK on that score........ shouldn't we???

Austin the Shrimper · May 22, 2020

yogi bear up the cagire said:
Haven't they been talking very recently about making non payment of wages a points deductible offence? If that is so then, unless they make it retrospective, we should be OK on that score........ shouldn't we???

You would hope with all that is going on, handing out points deductions is the last thing they should be doing to help struggling clubs.

kentblues · May 22, 2020

MK Shrimper said:
You know that how exactly? Twice non payment of wages, one illegible player. I don't wish it at all but I don't stick my fingers in my ears and hope it'll go away quietly.

1. If (and it is an if as having an ineligible player on the pitch for a minute has precedent of no points penalty being applied) points are deducted it is the points from that game (this season). The EFL have had ample time to rule on this- the fact they haven't bothered to date probably suggests they see little urgency as the sanction would be housekeeping with no impact on the season. Pronbaly they will take the 3 points away and our points total this season reduced.

2. On non-payment of wages its groundhog day. You obviously feel its very likely that the EFL will single us out for special treatment as the first club to have points deducted for this. Despite the fact that the EFL and clubs chose not to bring it in beginning of this season and my post #929 where the EFL and clubs are looking at bringing it in for the 20/21 season along with the wage cap. There are now a number of EFL clubs who also have not paid wages on time this season, and there will be many more. They needn't fear a points deduction either.

I'm not sure its fingers in the ear. It just based on all precedent and reports of what is the position of the EFL & the clubs. The PFA (to the extent they are even relevant as an organisation any more) have been jumping down on all sorts of issues and collectively the clubs have now well and truly put them back in their box.

So I am pretty confident based on the above there will be no points deduction beginning of next season. We can of course disagree and have the debate- but given the above I think saying we are very likely to be getting that points deduction beginning of next season is perhaps somewhat overstated?

Massimo Giovanni · May 22, 2020

If, BIG IF, the EFL and PFA have any business sense they will recognise that, we, SUFC, are a fairly good size, supported club who regularly travel and fund other clubs, certainly better than the likes of Barrow, Harrogate, Salford etc are likely to do, so watch the money.
We pay fairly well (with the obvious delays) to the PFA's members.
We seemingly have plans in place for a modern stadium which will boost our worth to the EFL.
We have a very good academy set up.
We have a good fan catchment area with no pro club within 30 + road miles.

Should they not give us credit for keeping working towards proper goals?

Jay_SUFC · May 22, 2020

yogi bear up the cagire said:
No one, for their supporters, want to see any club go into administration. Is this article sadly a realistic interpretation of where we stand at the moment?

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...without-urgent-govt-bailout-mp-warns-11992483

If, ufortunately, this turns out to be true, is there an immediate twelve point penalty for those clubs and what consequences could that have on the promotion relegation situation in Leagues One and Two?

Why should the government i.e. the tax payer, bailout football clubs, when they are billions floating around in the top flight. What needs to be done is the government should force money from there into the lower leagues

Green Wizard · May 22, 2020

How many clubs have gone into administration over the past few years? Clubs have been using this excuse to get out of paying their debts many times and it became an acceptable thing to do in football circles. No thought about the debtors owed money. The government have more deserving cases to worry about than a sport that has billions floating around.

overseas shrimper · May 22, 2020

Pak Power said:
How about no win no fee?

If only our squad was on that kind of contract. We would have saved shed loads.

yogi bear up the cagire · May 22, 2020

Jay_SUFC said:
Why should the government i.e. the tax payer, bailout football clubs, when they are billions floating around in the top flight. What needs to be done is the government should force money from there into the lower leagues

I don't think I actually suggested that the government should bail out football clubs but I do agree with you that the whole football structure is unbalanced to the point of obscenity. The distribution of riches should be shared far more evenly in the football family and not concentrated solely on a small number of privileged clubs.

camden shrimper · May 22, 2020

Jay_SUFC said:
Why should the government i.e. the tax payer, bailout football clubs, when they are billions floating around in the top flight. What needs to be done is the government should force money from there into the lower leagues

Whilst I agree with the sentiment somewhat, it's about bailing out those clubs that aren't successful. It's different entities within the same industry is all. A comparable argument would be saying corner shops and newsagents are struggling but we shouldn't help them as supermarkets have money. It's not a solid basis.
Yes, we need help, but need to move the conversation to the individual clubs, the impact on the local area and society both on and off the pitch and the financial and mental health benefits locally. We need to forget about the bigger clubs, they aren't going to help, they have no reason to in their and their shareholders eyes.
Plus there are some teams that simply are awfully run, it's such a tricky balance, take Charlton and Blackpool as examples they should not be helped as a business historically based on who was in charge but there is still a club with fans who shouldn't be let down. Shocking owners need to go. It's a minefield and riddled with issues but clubs need to be able to be compulsory purchased back when ownership has been proven to not have the interests of the club and sporting integrity at its core.