Question One For the Referees Out There

[1966 and all that]

Mick - I've had a rant about handball penalties on the general football forum. I'd be interested in your views.

 

[Mick]

Mick - I've had a rant about handball penalties on the general football forum. I'd be interested in your views.

Don't normally venture into that forum but added a comment.

 

[Lord Football]

Handball, another Law that could be improved. Its open to far too much interpretation and I know I've given handball outside the box that I'd never give if it were in. It would be so much easier if the word "deliberate" was removed. No one really deliberately handles the ball.

 

[madetotry]

Handball, another Law that could be improved. Its open to far too much interpretation and I know I've given handball outside the box that I'd never give if it were in. It would be so much easier if the word "deliberate" was removed. No one really deliberately handles the ball.

This was deliberate [video=youtube_share;-eZhBCqh8l8]http://youtu.be/-eZhBCqh8l8[/video]

 

[A Century United]

Handball, another Law that could be improved. Its open to far too much interpretation and I know I've given handball outside the box that I'd never give if it were in. It would be so much easier if the word "deliberate" was removed. No one really deliberately handles the ball.

:whistling:

 

[Fish]

Wow, loads of questions to answer to!

Not rushing for corners: If it wasn't clear who was taking the corner (for example, simply no-one went up to take it) then as a ref I'd consider one of two options, Either simply tell the nearest player to go take it, or warn/card the captain.

Encroachment at penalties: What is the point of re-taking a penalty for encroachment whenthe shot goes in directly? I get that's the rule, but what does it add to the game? What advantage does an attacking team get from someone having one foot inside the area when the penalty is taken and goes straight in? Ordering a re-take in those circumstances just causes irritation for no benefit. I'd prefer it if we only blow for encroachment if the player who encroached becomes involved in the passage of play (e.g. challenges for the rebound).

Substitute management: Don't see why the game has to be stopped for substitutions. With a 4th official on the sideline they are easy to manage, ref doesn't even need to get involved. Game doesn't need to stop, and it would soon stop teams using a substitution to slow the game down when trying to hold on to a 1 goal lead at the end of the game. I manage rolling substitutions week in, week out without the help of a sideline official and it's **** easy. These top refs are paid good money to do what they do, they should be able to manage subs without having to stop the game.

Handball: Simple change needed here - if the player whose hand comes into contact with the ball gains benefit from it (e.g. they get possession as a result or opposition play is compromised), then give a free kick. Consider personal penalty (i.e. card) if it's deliberate - but ONLY if it's deliberate. That way a defender on the line who has the ball smashed into his arm doesn't get a ludicrous automatic red card.

 

[Norwichshrimper]

Wow, loads of questions to answer to!

Not rushing for corners: If it wasn't clear who was taking the corner (for example, simply no-one went up to take it) then as a ref I'd consider one of two options, Either simply tell the nearest player to go take it, or warn/card the captain.

Encroachment at penalties: What is the point of re-taking a penalty for encroachment whenthe shot goes in directly? I get that's the rule, but what does it add to the game? What advantage does an attacking team get from someone having one foot inside the area when the penalty is taken and goes straight in? Ordering a re-take in those circumstances just causes irritation for no benefit. I'd prefer it if we only blow for encroachment if the player who encroached becomes involved in the passage of play (e.g. challenges for the rebound).

Substitute management: Don't see why the game has to be stopped for substitutions. With a 4th official on the sideline they are easy to manage, ref doesn't even need to get involved. Game doesn't need to stop, and it would soon stop teams using a substitution to slow the game down when trying to hold on to a 1 goal lead at the end of the game. I manage rolling substitutions week in, week out without the help of a sideline official and it's **** easy. These top refs are paid good money to do what they do, they should be able to manage subs without having to stop the game.

Handball: Simple change needed here - if the player whose hand comes into contact with the ball gains benefit from it (e.g. they get possession as a result or opposition play is compromised), then give a free kick. Consider personal penalty (i.e. card) if it's deliberate - but ONLY if it's deliberate. That way a defender on the line who has the ball smashed into his arm doesn't get a ludicrous automatic red card.

Ah, but how can a referee possibly know if it is deliberate. He can guess, but only the person handling the ball can truly know if it was deliberate.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

If you want to speed up substitutions, get the player to leave the pitch by the nearest touchline. That'll stop the left-winger going all the way over to the right-wing to be subbed.

Also, don't wait for the player to get into position. Teams should be able to take the throw-in (or free-kick) as soon as that sub is on the pitch.

 

[fbm]

Yes, in my opinion the removal of players and introduction of substitutes whilst play is continuing would be a recipe for confusion and chaos. If I were changing the Laws it would not be to allow this, I would prefer to maybe disallow the use of substitutes once the game has entered "stoppage" time.

In what way Mick? It works in Rugby quite well, so I'm told. I'm not a Rugby man myself.

 

[fbm]

I must admit, I would like to see tactical substitutions banned from the 85th minute on and a full minute added on for any substitution.

Another thing that gets me is the over-celebration of goals and the time that takes up. To stop that, how about saying that the game restarts regardless, 30 seconds after a goal is scored? If the team that have scored aren't back in position, tough. If the team that have conceded aren't ready to take it, then it's a free kick to the opposition.

 

[chapperzUK]

Would that really be needed though? Surely time wasted with any subs or goal celebrations will be added on at the end of the match. Which brings me to another point, it is a minimum of X minutes stoppage time but for some reason that translates as there will be X minutes and thats it.

 

[Fish]

If you want to speed up substitutions, get the player to leave the pitch by the nearest touchline. That'll stop the left-winger going all the way over to the right-wing to be subbed.

Also, don't wait for the player to get into position. Teams should be able to take the throw-in (or free-kick) as soon as that sub is on the pitch.

Why wait for the player to leave the pitch at all? Why can't the 4'th official manage substitutions while play is going on? Then we don't have to wait for the player to get off the pitch, or for the new one to get in position.

 

[Fish]

Another thing that gets me is the over-celebration of goals and the time that takes up. To stop that, how about saying that the game restarts regardless, 30 seconds after a goal is scored? If the team that have scored aren't back in position, tough. If the team that have conceded aren't ready to take it, then it's a free kick to the opposition.

How about saying that once the ball is over the goal line, the defending team can re-start the match as soon as they get the ball to the centre spot?

 

[Fish]

Ah, but how can a referee possibly know if it is deliberate. He can guess, but only the person handling the ball can truly know if it was deliberate.

So how can a ref give any free kicks at all at the moment? All free kicks have to be because a foul was deliberate.

 

[fbm]

How about saying that once the ball is over the goal line, the defending team can re-start the match as soon as they get the ball to the centre spot?

I thought about that but it may not suit them to restart quickly. Take an example of a team 2-0 up with 5 mins to go. The losing team get a goal back. The other team won't be in a hurry to start.

 

[A Century United]

So how can a ref give any free kicks at all at the moment? All free kicks have to be because a foul was deliberate.

Really? So Lumpen Left Back slides in on Whippet Winger in an honest attempt to get the ball, is a fraction late and Whippet Winger becomes Prostrate Player. Lumpen Left Back was honestly and sincerely trying to play the ball, so no free kick then?

Not all fouls are the result of deliberate intent to impede.

 

[Norwichshrimper]

So how can a ref give any free kicks at all at the moment? All free kicks have to be because a foul was deliberate.

No they don't! that's possibly the most ridiculous statement I've heard in ages! (EDIT Apologies no it's not, I've just read the Paul Smith thread).

If you're running into the box with the ball, I try to nick the ball away from you, but misjudge it and catch your ankle instead it's still a foul - the fact that it wasn't deliberate is neither here nor there. I shouldn't be given a card for the foul as it was accidental, but it's still a foul and still a penalty (or free kick).

I can't imagine many free kicks or penalties are conceded deliberately....maybe a few in desperation when there is a breakaway on or a player is clear on goal (and the Professional Foul rule has reduced this dramatically for the better)....the vast majority are for misjudgements in one way or another.

Saying that free kicks are only given for deliberate fouls is quite frankly bananas. - Did you say you were a ref in Football as well as Hockey?

 

[Norwichshrimper]

I must admit, I would like to see tactical substitutions banned from the 85th minute on and a full minute added on for any substitution.

Another thing that gets me is the over-celebration of goals and the time that takes up. To stop that, how about saying that the game restarts regardless, 30 seconds after a goal is scored? If the team that have scored aren't back in position, tough. If the team that have conceded aren't ready to take it, then it's a free kick to the opposition.

Nice idea, but it just wouldn't work. When subs were first introduced they were only for injured players - that worked great until the great Elland Road mystery of the late 60's early 70's when Leeds players seemingly in perfect health would suddenly be struck down with mystery injuries during the second half. They always seemed fit to play the next game though.

As I said the principal is a fine one, you have just overlooked the fact that almost all players and managers are cheats in one way or another. Sadly our once beautiful game is now gone and has been replaced by something darker.

I cannot watch the Premiershite anymore - you just get 22 men trying to con the referee for 90 mins, then the manager blaming said referee if they don't win.

Your suggestion would only work if you banned ALL substitutions in the last 5 minutes, and that would be grossly unfair on those players who are genuinely injured.

 

[Fish]

No they don't! that's possibly the most ridiculous statement I've heard in ages! (EDIT Apologies no it's not, I've just read the Paul Smith thread).

If you're running into the box with the ball, I try to nick the ball away from you, but misjudge it and catch your ankle instead it's still a foul - the fact that it wasn't deliberate is neither here nor there. I shouldn't be given a card for the foul as it was accidental, but it's still a foul and still a penalty (or free kick).

I can't imagine many free kicks or penalties are conceded deliberately....maybe a few in desperation when there is a breakaway on or a player is clear on goal (and the Professional Foul rule has reduced this dramatically for the better)....the vast majority are for misjudgements in one way or another.

Saying that free kicks are only given for deliberate fouls is quite frankly bananas. - Did you say you were a ref in Football as well as Hockey?

Sorry, in my haste I wasn't clear - all free kicks for handball have to be because the foul was deliberate - Law 12.

If you watch a typical game of football, and look at the majority of the fouls, then consider that the players you're watching are professionals, there's an awful lot of deliberate fouling that they dress up as a 'misjudgement'. It spoils the game and needs stamping out. Personally, I think the yellow card is pointless for as long as it means the player stays on the pitch. How many times have you seen a player make a cynical foul in the last 5 minutes to break down an attack when defending a slim lead? They know they can just 'take the yellow'. I've long been an advocate of sin-bins, I think it would make a huge difference to our game if teams went down to 10 men for 10 minutes after a yellow card. It works for rugby, why can't work for football?

"So Lumpen Left Back slides in on Whippet Winger in an honest attempt to get the ball, is a fraction late and Whippet Winger becomes Prostrate Player. Lumpen Left Back was honestly and sincerely trying to play the ball, so no free kick then?

Not all fouls are the result of deliberate intent to impede."

Century, if a tackle is big enough to make taking the player out inevitable (or even probable), that's still intent in my book, and that's why players often get a yellow in just that situation. Tackling is a skill too, and players shouldn't be able to get away with 'I was still near the ball so that's good enough'.

Personally, I think the penalties for fouls (team and personal penalties) should be adjusted so that they better reflect the effect the foul has on the game, and become less to do with the intent.

 

[A Century United]

Sorry, in my haste I wasn't clear - all free kicks for handball have to be because the foul was deliberate - Law 12.

If you watch a typical game of football, and look at the majority of the fouls, then consider that the players you're watching are professionals, there's an awful lot of deliberate fouling that they dress up as a 'misjudgement'. It spoils the game and needs stamping out. Personally, I think the yellow card is pointless for as long as it means the player stays on the pitch. How many times have you seen a player make a cynical foul in the last 5 minutes to break down an attack when defending a slim lead? They know they can just 'take the yellow'. I've long been an advocate of sin-bins, I think it would make a huge difference to our game if teams went down to 10 men for 10 minutes after a yellow card. It works for rugby, why can't work for football?

"So Lumpen Left Back slides in on Whippet Winger in an honest attempt to get the ball, is a fraction late and Whippet Winger becomes Prostrate Player. Lumpen Left Back was honestly and sincerely trying to play the ball, so no free kick then?

Not all fouls are the result of deliberate intent to impede."

Century, if a tackle is big enough to make taking the player out inevitable (or even probable), that's still intent in my book, and that's why players often get a yellow in just that situation. Tackling is a skill too, and players shouldn't be able to get away with 'I was still near the ball so that's good enough'.

Personally, I think the penalties for fouls (team and personal penalties) should be adjusted so that they better reflect the effect the foul has on the game, and become less to do with the intent.

.

Agreed about sin bins. Would like to see an official timekeeper, too, and play to end when the ball goes dead after time is up, rather than the farce of watching a keeper take a goal kick (for instance) just so the Ref can blow when the ball is in play.

Was tongue in cheek with my example, but a foul can result from an honest (and not reckless) attempt to win the ball, and contrast with the deliberate bringing down of a player to stop a breakaway - which is where, as you say, the punishment should reflect the effect the foul has on the game.