IF Sainsbury pull out?

[Smiffy]

Remember this from c.2001 and all the fun we had with KARERS?!

16,000 capacity and only £12.5m to build. Which is a cool £1.5m less than Sainsbury will cough up for the 3 sided monstrosity......or not now as the case may be.

Should of just stuck with that and maybe we would of been playing in it for several years now.

 

[jimmyshrimp]

Would grab that with both hands now!

 

[Jam_Man]

Remember this from c.2001 and all the fun we had with KARERS?!

16,000 capacity and only £12.5m to build. Which is a cool £1.5m less than Sainsbury will cough up for the 3 sided monstrosity......or not now as the case may be.

Should of just stuck with that and maybe we would of been playing in it for several years now.

16,000 would be ideal.

However was that to build any other facilities?

Obviously we would still want to be able to have other income, the hotel idea now seems to be dead int he water but conference facilities etc would certainly be useful.

I cant imagine adding that kind of functionality would add to the cost hugely though.

 

[Supa Shrimpa]

Now that looks perfect ! Ok 15k/16k...but that's my final offer :high five:

 

[Jam_Man]

Can't say I agree. Without the non-match day income there is no growth you talk about. We'll continue with spiralling debts. We've only gone over a 10k attendance once in the last 10 years in Div 2, and I doubt it was much more in Div 1. Let's be realistic, we need to do matchday specials just to get to 5,000-6,000 at the moment. I take your point about ambition, but isn't that gambling with the finances of the club, and is exactly what many are moaning about RM for doing ? I say, a medium sized ground, for a medium sized club, in a medium sized town.

Non-matchday revenue and football club expansion are not mutually exclusive.

You can, and should have both.

As for match day specials we have got 9000+ in the stadium when we have done them recently, we average 5,000+ without them. When we were in the Championship we averaged over 10,000 and sold out our home end every game, the potential is there and thats what you build for, you build a stadium for the next 50 years, not for what is happening this season.

Im not saying we should be gambling anything, as Smiffy showed above you can get a decent sized capacity for not that much money, we need a stadium suitable to our size, not just the size we need in League Two, unless people are happy to stay there.

It would be interesting if Sherif could give an indication of how much a 16k stadium would cost in this day and age, preferably a bowl and not a horrible 4 stand Col U job.

 

[EastStandBlue]

Agree with most, I see absolutely no point in building a 10,000 seater stadium if the whole point of moving is to give the club a platform for future growth. Even with non-football related income gate receipts will still be our principal earner, so to spend circa £10/15m to cap that at a level lower than we're already capable of just doesn't make sense.

By all means reduce the 22,000 that was approved when we were in the Championship, but to a level that still affords us the chance to grow. 15,000, with the ability to increase that to 22,000 in the future, would make perfect sense.

 

[chapperzUK]

Can't say I agree. Without the non-match day income there is no growth you talk about. We'll continue with spiralling debts. We've only gone over a 10k attendance once in the last 10 years in Div 2, and I doubt it was much more in Div 1. Let's be realistic, we need to do matchday specials just to get to 5,000-6,000 at the moment. I take your point about ambition, but isn't that gambling with the finances of the club, and is exactly what many are moaning about RM for doing ? I say, a medium sized ground, for a medium sized club, in a medium sized town.

Sheriff's suggestion was for the council to help us build the new stadium meaning our finances don't come into play at all.

We've had 5k+ this season easily without having any of these "specials" you've talked about. If you mean the offer last season when we played York (£5 a ticket) then we got over 9k in that game, in League 2.

In League 1, we were averaging 7,850 in 2008/09 (with a high of 10,240) and still managed an average of 7,718 in the 2009/10 relegation season (with a high of 10,329). In the Championship season, we averaged 10,024 - highest attendance being 11,415 and a low of 7,901.

Add to that a new stadium will in itself bring added interest and an extra "buzz", if we were to gain promotion to League 1 with a new stadium of just 10,000 then we wouldn't be able to hold the highest attendance from the last 2 seasons in League 1.

So while a 22k stadium is not needed NOW, it may be needed in the future. IMO, we should look to build a 14-16k seater stadium with the chance to increase.

That isn't the end of it though. What we should also try to do, which I believe is in the current plans, is allow improvements to the training ground to not only improve facilities for the first team but for the Academy as well. Ricky Duncan said recently in an article on the OS that we are one of the top Category 3 clubs and we are practically coaching at Category 2 standard. The only thing preventing us being a Category 2 standard club is the facilities and funding. The funding will hopefully come from the non-match day funding (as mentioned earlier and I will briefly go into below). If the council are willing to build the stadium, then we could persuade them to help with the facilities too - IIRC we need an indoor 3G pitch and they cost a couple of million too.

As for non-match day revenue, I'm not going to bother going into this too much as I've written enough as it is! We can all speculate and say doing X will generate £Y per season and doing blah will allow us to pay for blop. All we know is that the main stand has the potential to generate a decent amount of revenue. Just a quick look at this graph below (via Deloitte) shows that we could go follow how the Germans do it and have cheaper match day tickets - would certainly help us fill a 14k stadium in League 1 - but will need to boost Commercial (i.e. non-match day) revenue by quite a bit.

 

[Smiffy]

16,000 would be ideal.

However was that to build any other facilities?

Obviously we would still want to be able to have other income, the hotel idea now seems to be dead int he water but conference facilities etc would certainly be useful.

I cant imagine adding that kind of functionality would add to the cost hugely though.

From memory that did include exec boxes, conference facilities, 80 bed hotel and restaurant all in the main stand. It just didn't have the retail arm linked to it. That is where it all started going wrong. When Ron decided to link a retail park to the actual stadium and increase the stadium capacity. Not sure why this was shelved? Was it greed or was it needed?

 

[Jam_Man]

Great post Chapperz, I so wish I had included graphs or pie charts:smile:

From memory that did include exec boxes, conference facilities, 80 bed hotel and restaurant all in the main stand. It just didn't have the retail arm linked to it.

Well that just goes to show what a better option might have been, or still could be.

Problem is if Sainsbury dont pull out we continue as planned or have to start from scratch, if they do then we have to start from scratch anyway.

 

[ooh-andy-ansah]

MK Dons don't need a stadium their size but it gets used for concerts and other events that all provide revenue.

 

[Pubey]

Sheriff's suggestion was for the council to help us build the new stadium meaning our finances don't come into play at all.

We've had 5k+ this season easily without having any of these "specials" you've talked about. If you mean the offer last season when we played York (£5 a ticket) then we got over 9k in that game, in League 2.

In League 1, we were averaging 7,850 in 2008/09 (with a high of 10,240) and still managed an average of 7,718 in the 2009/10 relegation season (with a high of 10,329). In the Championship season, we averaged 10,024 - highest attendance being 11,415 and a low of 7,901.

Add to that a new stadium will in itself bring added interest and an extra "buzz", if we were to gain promotion to League 1 with a new stadium of just 10,000 then we wouldn't be able to hold the highest attendance from the last 2 seasons in League 1.

So while a 22k stadium is not needed NOW, it may be needed in the future. IMO, we should look to build a 14-16k seater stadium with the chance to increase.

That isn't the end of it though. What we should also try to do, which I believe is in the current plans, is allow improvements to the training ground to not only improve facilities for the first team but for the Academy as well. Ricky Duncan said recently in an article on the OS that we are one of the top Category 3 clubs and we are practically coaching at Category 2 standard. The only thing preventing us being a Category 2 standard club is the facilities and funding. The funding will hopefully come from the non-match day funding (as mentioned earlier and I will briefly go into below). If the council are willing to build the stadium, then we could persuade them to help with the facilities too - IIRC we need an indoor 3G pitch and they cost a couple of million too.

As for non-match day revenue, I'm not going to bother going into this too much as I've written enough as it is! We can all speculate and say doing X will generate £Y per season and doing blah will allow us to pay for blop. All we know is that the main stand has the potential to generate a decent amount of revenue. Just a quick look at this graph below (via Deloitte) shows that we could go follow how the Germans do it and have cheaper match day tickets - would certainly help us fill a 14k stadium in League 1 - but will need to boost Commercial (i.e. non-match day) revenue by quite a bit.

Indoor 3G would be a major revenue stream as well (personally it should be councils who build them but that's another discussion). Full pitch hire rates per hour for indoor 3G starts from around £200. So you could conceivably be bringing in thousands a week with it.

 

[EastStandBlue]

Indoor 3G would be a major revenue stream as well (personally it should be councils who build them but that's another discussion). Full pitch hire rates per hour for indoor 3G starts from around £200. So you could conceivably be bringing in thousands a week with it.

Aye, and at the moment football clubs can actually apply for financial help to build one from the RFU board (as long as you enter an agreement with a local rugby club in which they gain access to it for x amount of time per week) as there are so few rugby-friendly facilities in the country. I know quite a few grassroots clubs in London have gone down this route and thrived because of it.

 

[chapperzUK]

Indoor 3G would be a major revenue stream as well (personally it should be councils who build them but that's another discussion). Full pitch hire rates per hour for indoor 3G starts from around £200. So you could conceivably be bringing in thousands a week with it.

I was thinking that, but there could be a complication with the EPPP category grading as I believe the pitch has to be primarily available for the club and there are a certain amount of hours that it needs to be available for per week. Not 100% sure on that though.

 

[Pubey]

I was thinking that, but there could be a complication with the EPPP category grading as I believe the pitch has to be primarily available for the club and there are a certain amount of hours that it needs to be available for per week. Not 100% sure on that though.

I dunno how it works but I play every week on Sheffield United's outdoor 3G (and their indoor is for hire at the same time). I think it's only possible for a couple of nights (after 8pm) but even so it's a fantastic facility and good for the community - I don't think it's a huge money spinner for someone like Sheffield United but every little helps if they're getting 2 x pitch hire x 2hrs x 2nights.

ESB will know more, but it seems daft that clubs should need to build and own and be the primary user of a facility to tick a box, whereas in other countries there's been a massive drive for communities and schools to build indoor and outdoor 3G facilities which can be used as all levels (including pro level) and these are facilities which can be used almost 24/7.

 

[EastStandBlue]

I dunno how it works but I play every week on Sheffield United's outdoor 3G (and their indoor is for hire at the same time). I think it's only possible for a couple of nights (after 8pm) but even so it's a fantastic facility and good for the community - I don't think it's a huge money spinner for someone like Sheffield United but every little helps if they're getting 2 x pitch hire x 2hrs x 2nights.

ESB will know more, but it seems daft that clubs should need to build and own and be the primary user of a facility to tick a box, whereas in other countries there's been a massive drive for communities and schools to build indoor and outdoor 3G facilities which can be used as all levels (including pro level) and these are facilities which can be used almost 24/7.

Well, the minimum requirement to gain Category 2 under the EPPP is to have an indoor, all-weather pitch/facility that's for use exclusively by the club. I can't see any clarification regarding outdoor 3G pitches, or even if one pitch under the same facility could be made available for others. Presumably the club could have two pitches and perimeter one for club use and the other for paid for use.

 

[chapperzUK]

I dunno how it works but I play every week on Sheffield United's outdoor 3G (and their indoor is for hire at the same time). I think it's only possible for a couple of nights (after 8pm) but even so it's a fantastic facility and good for the community - I don't think it's a huge money spinner for someone like Sheffield United but every little helps if they're getting 2 x pitch hire x 2hrs x 2nights.

ESB will know more, but it seems daft that clubs should need to build and own and be the primary user of a facility to tick a box, whereas in other countries there's been a massive drive for communities and schools to build indoor and outdoor 3G facilities which can be used as all levels (including pro level) and these are facilities which can be used almost 24/7.

I wasn't sure on the requirements behind the indoor 3g pitch, but going on what I heard when it first came out so I might be wrong. Extra revenue would be great, even if it is what you stated, but not at the expense of losing Category 2 status as that is £12,500 per year for a player aged 12-16 years.

Quick look and can see that Sheffield United are a Category 2 club, but on the website doesn't state when available.

http://www.sufc.co.uk/news/article/20120401-want-to-play-football-211754.aspx

 

[Fairport]

Does anyone have figures on how many large "out of town" supermarkets have been built over the last two years? I get the impression that the numbers are dwindling and the trend is for the small "convenience shops" to be built. If so, then Sainsbury's could well pull out of the deal. Where that leaves Ron and his debt to Sainsbury's I don't know. I can see Roots Hall becoming a housing site whether its owned by Sainsbury's or anyone else. Lots of these large supermarkets own land which they at one time planned to build on, often they just sat tight so that no rival chain could build on it. I can see lots of them, including Sainsbury's building flats and houses on these plots. There has been a trend over the last years for businesses to sell up to a developer and retire off the profits. This has happened to petrol stations, small factories and offices etc. There are so many places that were places of work which are now residential sites. Why carry on running a business with all the hassle and worry when you can just sell up to a developer. I can see similar happening on a larger scale with Sainsbury's, Tesco, Morrison etc deciding to sell land that they own to developers for housing, or even setting up their own housing development section.

 

[Pubey]

Well, the minimum requirement to gain Category 2 under the EPPP is to have an indoor, all-weather pitch/facility that's for use exclusively by the club. I can't see any clarification regarding outdoor 3G pitches, or even if one pitch under the same facility could be made available for others. Presumably the club could have two pitches and perimeter one for club use and the other for paid for use.

I don't get how it works, but at face value it seems really counter-intuitive to have a shut facility, because how many clubs are going to be needing use of indoor 3G facilities 24/7/365.

Surely it's sensible for a club to own a facility for their primary use and when it's not being used then to use that for community use? That the impression I get from Sheff Utd (who are Cat 2) but I could be wrong.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Don't know whether others have been keeping an eye on Bristol Rovers new ground development? It' not just us, that Sainsbury's have on tender hooks. They've even got Cameron batting for them.......not sure whether that helps a lot! :unsure:

http://www.gazetteseries.co.uk/news..._talks_with_Sainsbury_s_over_stadium/?ref=rss

 

[EastStandBlue]

I don't get how it works, but at face value it seems really counter-intuitive to have a shut facility, because how many clubs are going to be needing use of indoor 3G facilities 24/7/365.

Surely it's sensible for a club to own a facility for their primary use and when it's not being used then to use that for community use? That the impression I get from Sheff Utd (who are Cat 2) but I could be wrong.

Maybe there's leniency in the FA's ruling, but the wording states that the facility must be exclusive to the club. I completely agree that any facility like that should be opened for at least grass roots use, if not full community, but I also understand what the FA are attempting to do in ensuring the facilities are always available to the players first.