IF Sainsbury pull out?

[Supa Shrimpa]

A 3 sided thing with no main stand, is like a car without fuel.

 

[Jam_Man]

A 3 sided thing with no main stand, is like a car without fuel.

Isnt it more like a car with only 3 sides? :smile:

 

[Supa Shrimpa]

:thumbsup:

 

[fbm]

Good post.

Yes there is a lot of huff and puff about this 3 sided thing, as to me I cannot fathom how the hell we can survive without one, for potentially 5 years or forever?

I think the Council have been a bit too lenient on Ron as well to be honest, but at the same time they have been very supportive. It is a difficult one for them, as obviously they dont want to kill the towns football club. But at some point they have to draw the line. For me they should of never allowed such a phased build plan (Certainly for the Main Stand) and the contribution payments in the way it has been scheduled.

It all just rings the biggest alarm bells possible for me.

Easier said than done in real time, very, very simply done with hindsight.

 

[Jam_Man]

As you said above though, if they had stood fast and said no and it had resulted in the development falling apart then they are the ones that will get the blame.

We should never have been in the position to have to propose it, and that again comes down to the man who was trying to deliver something he didnt have the resources to do sadly.

 

[fbm]

As you said above though, if they had stood fast and said no and it had resulted in the development falling apart then they are the ones that will get the blame.

We should never have been in the position to have to propose it, and that again comes down to the man who was trying to deliver something he didnt have the resources to do sadly.

Which obviously was never going to happen as no council is going to risk incurring the wrath of the voters over something like the towns football club as it will guarantee not being elected next time.

Still, we are where we are.

 

[Napster]

wow 14 pages of conjecture.

 

[McNasty]

wow 14 pages of conjecture.

Do you know something we don't ?

 

[Napster]

Do you know something we don't ?

No, sorry. :dim:

 

[Sherif H]

This is why I rarely post on SZ where the stadium is concerned - 9 pages of baseless nonsense about how moving to a smaller stadium is showing a lack of ambition.

Let me straighten out one fundamental point here - capacity does not directly correlate to ambition. The primary purpose of moving to a new stadium is to increase NON-MATCHDAY revenue, ergo, you need to provide modern playing, administrative and training facilities - all things which are not economically deliverable at Roots Hall, and, to use the Col U example again, all things which they have delivered in a small, financially sustainable package.

You won't find anybody keener than myself to see Southend plying their trade in the 2nd tier in a 30,000 capacity bowl, but I am telling you that in our current situation, a sensible suggestion is to deliver a complete stadium with a vastly reduced capacity, but which, crucially, can deliver the non-matchday functions we do not currently benefit from...namely sufficient corporate hospitality and banqueting spaces, community changing and playing facilities and flexible commercial lease space.

Building 22,000 seats in a complex and expensive bowl configuration may be an aspiration but it simply isn't needed from a commercial sustainability viewpoint at this point in time - pegging that design back to a simplified 10-12,000 seater with the facilities we currently do require is far cheaper, quicker and sensible. In addition, as already explained, it can easily be adapted to receive expansion to all four stands to coincide with actual demand.

 

[fbm]

This is why I rarely post on SZ where the stadium is concerned - 9 pages of baseless nonsense about how moving to a smaller stadium is showing a lack of ambition.

Let me straighten out one fundamental point here - capacity does not directly correlate to ambition. The primary purpose of moving to a new stadium is to increase NON-MATCHDAY revenue, ergo, you need to provide modern playing, administrative and training facilities - all things which are not economically deliverable at Roots Hall, and, to use the Col U example again, all things which they have delivered in a small, financially sustainable package.

You won't find anybody keener than myself to see Southend plying their trade in the 2nd tier in a 30,000 capacity bowl, but I am telling you that in our current situation, a sensible suggestion is to deliver a complete stadium with a vastly reduced capacity, but which, crucially, can deliver the non-matchday functions we do not currently benefit from...namely sufficient corporate hospitality and banqueting spaces, community changing and playing facilities and flexible commercial lease space.

Building 22,000 seats in a complex and expensive bowl configuration may be an aspiration but it simply isn't needed from a commercial sustainability viewpoint at this point in time - pegging that design back to a simplified 10-12,000 seater with the facilities we currently do require is far cheaper, quicker and sensible. In addition, as already explained, it can easily be adapted to receive expansion to all four stands to coincide with actual demand.

Unless the 4th stand isn't owned by the same investors or companies that the other three are, thereby hiving off or allocating all the revenue earned from that one stand to a different place than the other three.

If the company, investor or individual doesn't have the money to build that 4th stand, regardless of it's size, then the question becomes academic.

 

[Sherif H]

Unless the 4th stand isn't owned by the same investors or companies that the other three are, thereby hiving off or allocating all the revenue earned from that one stand to a different place than the other three.

If the company, investor or individual doesn't have the money to build that 4th stand, regardless of it's size, then the question becomes academic.

You've missed the point of my last post entirely - I'm saying you could deliver the so-called 'main stand' in a more modest overall development for a total cost of, probably, 25% of the current projected cost (I imagine) of the FF development.

That suggests to me that RM would be able to fund it entirely through bank loans, even in this current climate, given that the business case for a development of this size and cost would be massively more palatable and justifiable.

 

[fbm]

You've missed the point of my last post entirely - I'm saying you could deliver the so-called 'main stand' in a more modest overall development for a total cost of, probably, 25% of the current projected cost (I imagine) of the FF development.

That suggests to me that RM would be able to fund it entirely through bank loans, even in this current climate, given that the business case for a development of this size and cost would be massively more palatable and justifiable.

Ok, but let's say the main stand is the one which will contain the biggest facilities (no idea but seems a sensible assumption). The cost of building a main stand half the size won't be half, it will be higher than that, and maybe it's the facilities that will determine the size of the stand rather than it being dictated by the crowd capacity, especially if it's the facilities that will bring in the revenue.

I don't know and I understand what you're saying, but for whatever reason that wouldn't appear to be an option that is prepared to be considered, no matter how much short term sense it makes.

 

[Jam_Man]

This is why I rarely post on SZ where the stadium is concerned - 9 pages of baseless nonsense about how moving to a smaller stadium is showing a lack of ambition.

Let me straighten out one fundamental point here - capacity does not directly correlate to ambition. The primary purpose of moving to a new stadium is to increase NON-MATCHDAY revenue, ergo, you need to provide modern playing, administrative and training facilities - all things which are not economically deliverable at Roots Hall, and, to use the Col U example again, all things which they have delivered in a small, financially sustainable package.

You won't find anybody keener than myself to see Southend plying their trade in the 2nd tier in a 30,000 capacity bowl, but I am telling you that in our current situation, a sensible suggestion is to deliver a complete stadium with a vastly reduced capacity, but which, crucially, can deliver the non-matchday functions we do not currently benefit from...namely sufficient corporate hospitality and banqueting spaces, community changing and playing facilities and flexible commercial lease space.

Building 22,000 seats in a complex and expensive bowl configuration may be an aspiration but it simply isn't needed from a commercial sustainability viewpoint at this point in time - pegging that design back to a simplified 10-12,000 seater with the facilities we currently do require is far cheaper, quicker and sensible. In addition, as already explained, it can easily be adapted to receive expansion to all four stands to coincide with actual demand.

No one is saying 22,000 seats is what we need, but a smaller stadium than we have now is ? A stadium that wouldnt even meet our needs in the last decade, and wouldnt even have been barely enough for a game against Morcambe and York in the last season or two where we got over 9,000 in the bottom division?

Sorry but you certainly know a lot about stadium builds but building a smaller stadium is ridiculous, I would be gutted if we built a stadium for 10k.

Surely we could build a 15/16,000 stadium at a reasonable cost in comparison to Fossetts which gives us room to expand as a club on top of the non-matchday revenue.

As supporters we say nothing but promotion from this division is acceptable, and should we ever get out of this league we will all be hoping (although not expecting by right) to get promotion. If we are in a stadium of 10,000 that will never support what we need to progress, and just to have room to expand is not enough.

What sort of difference in cost would there be for a 10,000 and a 16,000 stadium? (Hopefully not in the horribly dated style of Col U's as well)

 

[Supa Shrimpa]

The primary purpose of moving to a new stadium is to increase NON-MATCHDAY revenue

Exactly ! Wasn't that the basis on which the new stadium was sold to us in the first place ? If you take the Ricoh Arena for example, the corporate boxes double up as hotel rooms, aswell. They have a dual purpose and provide (or were supposed to provide!) a dual income (see www.devereatthericoharena.com/accommodation-en.html). Football clubs are not sustainable with matchday income, selling shirts etc alone . They need to generate income elsewhere, in particular in the close season, and that's what the main stand provides.

 

[Jam_Man]

No one is denying we need the non-day match income, but to generate that and hamstring any chance of growth of the club and to cope with demand for the spikes and prevent us from doing matchday specials to get new fans in will do long term harm.

If we want the club to progress and grow we need room to expand. 22k has always seemed overly ambitious, but adding a few thousand to what we have is sensible.

Having a stadium the same size as Col U and barely much bigger than Orient isnt unambitious I dont know what is. I want to see us the biggest club in Essex, not the best conferencing location..

 

[Supa Shrimpa]

Can't say I agree. Without the non-match day income there is no growth you talk about. We'll continue with spiralling debts. We've only gone over a 10k attendance once in the last 10 years in Div 2, and I doubt it was much more in Div 1. Let's be realistic, we need to do matchday specials just to get to 5,000-6,000 at the moment. I take your point about ambition, but isn't that gambling with the finances of the club, and is exactly what many are moaning about RM for doing ? I say, a medium sized ground, for a medium sized club, in a medium sized town.

 

[mrsblue]

Can't say I agree. Without the non-match day income there is no growth you talk about. We'll continue with spiralling debts. We've only gone over a 10k attendance once in the last 10 years in Div 2, and I doubt it was much more in Div 1. Let's be realistic, we need to do matchday specials just to get to 5,000-6,000 at the moment. I take your point about ambition, but isn't that gambling with the finances of the club, and is exactly what many are moaning about RM for doing ? I say, a medium sized ground, for a medium sized club, in a medium sized town.

Agree with this !

The entire FF project should be binned and a modest completed in full stadium should be built !

 

[Ricky Otto]

No one is denying we need the non-day match income, but to generate that and hamstring any chance of growth of the club and to cope with demand for the spikes and prevent us from doing matchday specials to get new fans in will do long term harm.

If we want the club to progress and grow we need room to expand. 22k has always seemed overly ambitious, but adding a few thousand to what we have is sensible.

Having a stadium the same size as Col U and barely much bigger than Orient isnt unambitious I dont know what is. I want to see us the biggest club in Essex, not the best conferencing location..

100% my opinion, wouldn't want the same size or smaller than Roots Hall, to me that is pointless

 

[jimmyshrimp]

I think if we scaled down, I would still want to see a 15,000 16,000 capacity (4 sides) and better facilities all round of course!