Holding hands with a baby

[A Century United]

WARNING: :soapbox:


My wife has Huntington's disease, which is an inherited neurodegenrative illness, which slowly disables the suffer and leads to a relatively early death. Nowdays if a foetus is diagnosed with HD, it will like as not be aborted. It has even been hinted that my wife would have been better off if she had never been born.

My wife would rather not have HD but she would absolutely rather have the life she has than never had that chance. It hasn't been easy finding out about it, and having our lives completely changed because of it - but though it has been difficult, neither of us would now change a thing. Very often in the abortion debate (and I am not against all abortion, far from it) people tend to start making decisions for other people on the grounds that they would be better off not having to live with whatever disability/knowledge/background that they might have been born with. The baby in the picture is being operated on for Spina Bifida, which is an acceptable reason for abortion (mind you, so is cleft lip, apparently) and according to the details given he is now a well and happy 9 year old.

The abortion act was brought in, justifiably, to save desperate women from back-street butchers, but now it is just another form of birth control and social engineering, I think society is poorer as a result, and I think the debate needs to be more than just about a woman's right to choose.

 

[OldBlueLady]

WARNING: :soapbox:


My wife has Huntington's disease, which is an inherited neurodegenrative illness, which slowly disables the suffer and leads to a relatively early death. Nowdays if a foetus is diagnosed with HD, it will like as not be aborted. It has even been hinted that my wife would have been better off if she had never been born.

My wife would rather not have HD but she would absolutely rather have the life she has than never had that chance. It hasn't been easy finding out about it, and having our lives completely changed because of it - but though it has been difficult, neither of us would now change a thing. Very often in the abortion debate (and I am not against all abortion, far from it) people tend to start making decisions for other people on the grounds that they would be better off not having to live with whatever disability/knowledge/background that they might have been born with. The baby in the picture is being operated on for Spina Bifida, which is an acceptable reason for abortion (mind you, so is cleft lip, apparently) and according to the details given he is now a well and happy 9 year old.

The abortion act was brought in, justifiably, to save desperate women from back-street butchers, but now it is just another form of birth control and social engineering, I think society is poorer as a result, and I think the debate needs to be more than just about a woman's right to choose.

Was just going to post something myself along these lines as I am frankly stunned by how many on here think it is a woman's right to do as she wants. So sorry to hear about your wife's condition, I think when you have insight into the lives of people afflicted in some way then you tend to be slightly more pro-life in this debate.

If a woman is so irresponsible that she is either in no fit state or chooses not to use contraception then I'm sorry, she's made a mistake, she has to live with that. She is perfectly able to arrange for a morning after pill, there is no need for an unwanted pregnancy in this day and age in the normal course of events. There are plenty of childless people out there (and I don't mean homosexual or lesbian couples - that's a whole other argument) crying out for babies to adopt, if she's too feckless to be able to sort this out. A termination is not a form of birth control.

In the case of rape, then I wholeheartedly agree that this is emotive, and as such a medical opinion on a termination can apply equally to the mother as the baby. I cannot imagine why any woman would choose to bring up a child born out of rape, again, there is the option of adoption.

I had a friend who found herself pregnant within a loving relationship. At 28 weeks, they carried out some tests which had been overlooked. Subsequently it was discovered the foetus was so severely handicapped with spina bifida and hydrocephalus that she would have zero quality of life, i.e. would be in a completely vegetative state. My friend was induced and had to go through normal labour before the baby was born, she lived for only 10 minutes and there were no attempts to resuscitate. That pregnancy should have been terminated.

I have worked with many disabled and handicapped children over the years. They have all been rewarding in their own ways. The hardest one for me is Downs. I've known loads of Downs children, yet people are allowed to choose to terminate a pregnancy if there is a risk of Downs yet Downs children are THE most loving children.

 

[A Century United]

I have worked with many disabled and handicapped children over the years. They have all been rewarding in their own ways. The hardest one for me is Downs. I've known loads of Downs children, yet people are allowed to choose to terminate a pregnancy if there is a risk of Downs yet Downs children are THE most loving children.

Thanks, OBL, and excellent post - and I too have worked with Downs (one lad who was Autistic and Downs!) and they add so much to life - there is so much to learn from the hard difficult things in life, yet we spend all our time trying to avoid them and pretend they don't exist,

 

[osymandus]

WARNING: :soapbox:


My wife has Huntington's disease, which is an inherited neurodegenrative illness, which slowly disables the suffer and leads to a relatively early death. Nowdays if a foetus is diagnosed with HD, it will like as not be aborted. It has even been hinted that my wife would have been better off if she had never been born.

My wife would rather not have HD but she would absolutely rather have the life she has than never had that chance. It hasn't been easy finding out about it, and having our lives completely changed because of it - but though it has been difficult, neither of us would now change a thing. Very often in the abortion debate (and I am not against all abortion, far from it) people tend to start making decisions for other people on the grounds that they would be better off not having to live with whatever disability/knowledge/background that they might have been born with. The baby in the picture is being operated on for Spina Bifida, which is an acceptable reason for abortion (mind you, so is cleft lip, apparently) and according to the details given he is now a well and happy 9 year old.

The abortion act was brought in, justifiably, to save desperate women from back-street butchers, but now it is just another form of birth control and social engineering, I think society is poorer as a result, and I think the debate needs to be more than just about a woman's right to choose.

Evolution has no concept of morality , yet those who prosper are not and should never be dictated by the morals of others only their own endeavours . Its the old cheshnut we have the power over life and control of iot but do we have the right ? IF you can live and thrive in your enviroment, and enjoy your life , then who can judge but them ?
However at what stage can that decision be made by the individual ?

 

[OldBlueLady]

Evolution has no concept of morality , yet those who prosper are not and should never be dictated by the morals of others only their own endeavours . Its the old cheshnut we have the power over life and control of iot but do we have the right ? IF you can live and thrive in your enviroment, and enjoy your life , then who can judge but them ?
However at what stage can that decision be made by the individual ?

This can so easily lead into a discussion on euthanasia here but I'd prefer to stay on topic. Ethically I disagree with just about everything the scientists are doing at the moment with cross fertilisation of embryos; morally I agree with what they are doing with stem cell research amongst others. Doctors are now saving many, many more patients (babies, children and adults) due to huge leaps in medical knowledge, that would have died in the past. The whole debate is a mass of contradiction. People are living who should have died, and others who want to die are being forced to live.

 

[osymandus]

This can so easily lead into a discussion on euthanasia here but I'd prefer to stay on topic. Ethically I disagree with just about everything the scientists are doing at the moment with cross fertilisation of embryos; morally I agree with what they are doing with stem cell research amongst others. Doctors are now saving many, many more patients (babies, children and adults) due to huge leaps in medical knowledge, that would have died in the past. The whole debate is a mass of contradiction. People are living who should have died, and others who want to die are being forced to live.

Spot on , untill we give the rights back to the individuals we can probaly never resolve this issue. We have the right to die as well as to live. OF our own choosing

 

[WestRoadShrimper]

The abortion act was brought in, justifiably, to save desperate women from back-street butchers, but now it is just another form of birth control and social engineering, I think society is poorer as a result, and I think the debate needs to be more than just about a woman's right to choose.

Very true. My personal view is that given we have things such as contraception, pregnancy tests, etc that the woman should only have a choice up to 20 weeks. After that an abortion should only be carried out for extreme medical/mental reasons.

Can anyone really say that they would need more than 20 weeks to decide if they wish to keep a baby or not?

 

[Vange Shrimper]

With the subject of abortion being used as a form of birth control and IIRC Sam saying it's not unusual to hear about a girls having 5 abortions, this would f*ck them up in the future if they did want children.

Would a body want to go through the production (so to speak) of a 6th child, when before it had to put up with 5 abortions?

 

[the_forgotten_man]

I am against abortion in all situations but those in which the mother is in extreme risk of ill-health, or dying, as a result of a potential birth.

I find it difficult in the extreme to hear people say that it centres entirely around the woman's choice, and that the baby's rights, and even the father's are completely ignored. Whilst the potential mother is an integral part of the creation process, the father is equally important - I wonder how many men on here would find it OK if a girlfriend had become pregnant and had an abortion, without consulting them? I suppose it exemplifies the way in which fathers have become a disposable item in today's family, but it's something which is disturbing.

Then we come to the baby itself. I, like some who have posted on this thread, find it abhorrent that people make a choice on their behalf - "Oh he/she wouldn't have any standard of living", or "Oh it would be an unwanted child, that's unfair". Well frankly, that's nonsense. It's up to the parents to ensure that any 'unwanted' child doesn't ever feel it is such when it comes into the world, and it is not right that the baby should be aborted just in case it is slightly miserable. Given the choice between feeling like a spare part in a family (which I reiterate, no baby should) or having no life at all, I'm pretty sure most would choose life, could they speak.

And then we come to the most disturbing aspect of all - it is estimated that 46,000,000 babies have been aborted in the US alone. That's 46,000,000 people who, had their parents not deemed them surplus to requirements, would have been alive today. The effective murder of 46,000,000 people is condoned by virtually all, and that, for people like myself, who believe babies in the womb are just that - living babies - is utterly revolting. People have become so wrapped up in the human rights of potential mothers, that they have forgotten the most important human right of all - the right to life.

And finally, we come to the most contentious issue, that of abortion in cases where the pregnant woman has been raped. I must admit, I find this the most difficult situation, but I do believe that abortion shouldn't take place. If one believes, as I do, that the foetus, and then baby, living inside the womb is a living human, then it would be utterly hypocritical to claim that because the mother was raped, it was OK for a human life to be killed. Whilst it may be difficult for the mother, difficult is not necessarily a bad thing. Indeed an extraordinarily good thing can eventually arise from an horrific situation - a baby.

 

[osymandus]

I am against abortion in all situations but those in which the mother is in extreme risk of ill-health, or dying, as a result of a potential birth.

I find it difficult in the extreme to hear people say that it centres entirely around the woman's choice, and that the baby's rights, and even the father's are completely ignored. Whilst the potential mother is an integral part of the creation process, the father is equally important - I wonder how many men on here would find it OK if a girlfriend had become pregnant and had an abortion, without consulting them? I suppose it exemplifies the way in which fathers have become a disposable item in today's family, but it's something which is disturbing.

Then we come to the baby itself. I, like some who have posted on this thread, find it abhorrent that people make a choice on their behalf - "Oh he/she wouldn't have any standard of living", or "Oh it would be an unwanted child, that's unfair". Well frankly, that's nonsense. It's up to the parents to ensure that any 'unwanted' child doesn't ever feel it is such when it comes into the world, and it is not right that the baby should be aborted just in case it is slightly miserable. Given the choice between feeling like a spare part in a family (which I reiterate, no baby should) or having no life at all, I'm pretty sure most would choose life, could they speak.

And then we come to the most disturbing aspect of all - it is estimated that 46,000,000 babies have been aborted in the US alone. That's 46,000,000 people who, had their parents not deemed them surplus to requirements, would have been alive today. The effective murder of 46,000,000 people is condoned by virtually all, and that, for people like myself, who believe babies in the womb are just that - living babies - is utterly revolting. People have become so wrapped up in the human rights of potential mothers, that they have forgotten the most important human right of all - the right to life.

And finally, we come to the most contentious issue, that of abortion in cases where the pregnant woman has been raped. I must admit, I find this the most difficult situation, but I do believe that abortion shouldn't take place. If one believes, as I do, that the foetus, and then baby, living inside the womb is a living human, then it would be utterly hypocritical to claim that because the mother was raped, it was OK for a human life to be killed. Whilst it may be difficult for the mother, difficult is not necessarily a bad thing. Indeed an extraordinarily good thing can eventually arise from an horrific situation - a baby.

TO my mind the ultimate decision with consultation from others and the fater should still lie with the woman , and no i could not go back on that if my girlfriend did so with out consulting me , their my principles and i would stick to them. The emotional and physical trauma that can occur (and i know people who have had willing abortions and still births) to my mind gives them the casting vote in this.

Re the remaning parts , here in lies the problem . We simply cannot save everyone it is impossible to provide care a good life and sustance for every single living being on our planet , and i dont just included humans in this .
you talk about 46,000 000 "killed . The human race currently stands at 10,000 000 000 000 . Now we can never reduce life to numbers but can we honestly say it can always be right to allow it to propogate unregulated by oursleves. Other speices virth rates are controlled by enviromental conditions a, predators and disease, humans are no longer affected.


The right to life is dicated by the capcity to survive your birth , society changed this , and now it must find away to regulate it , of which so far it has failed to do .

 

[MK Shrimper]

I am against abortion in all situations but those in which the mother is in extreme risk of ill-health, or dying, as a result of a potential birth.

I find it difficult in the extreme to hear people say that it centres entirely around the woman's choice, and that the baby's rights, and even the father's are completely ignored. Whilst the potential mother is an integral part of the creation process, the father is equally important - I wonder how many men on here would find it OK if a girlfriend had become pregnant and had an abortion, without consulting them? I suppose it exemplifies the way in which fathers have become a disposable item in today's family, but it's something which is disturbing.

Then we come to the baby itself. I, like some who have posted on this thread, find it abhorrent that people make a choice on their behalf - "Oh he/she wouldn't have any standard of living", or "Oh it would be an unwanted child, that's unfair". Well frankly, that's nonsense. It's up to the parents to ensure that any 'unwanted' child doesn't ever feel it is such when it comes into the world, and it is not right that the baby should be aborted just in case it is slightly miserable. Given the choice between feeling like a spare part in a family (which I reiterate, no baby should) or having no life at all, I'm pretty sure most would choose life, could they speak.

And then we come to the most disturbing aspect of all - it is estimated that 46,000,000 babies have been aborted in the US alone. That's 46,000,000 people who, had their parents not deemed them surplus to requirements, would have been alive today. The effective murder of 46,000,000 people is condoned by virtually all, and that, for people like myself, who believe babies in the womb are just that - living babies - is utterly revolting. People have become so wrapped up in the human rights of potential mothers, that they have forgotten the most important human right of all - the right to life.

And finally, we come to the most contentious issue, that of abortion in cases where the pregnant woman has been raped. I must admit, I find this the most difficult situation, but I do believe that abortion shouldn't take place. If one believes, as I do, that the foetus, and then baby, living inside the womb is a living human, then it would be utterly hypocritical to claim that because the mother was raped, it was OK for a human life to be killed. Whilst it may be difficult for the mother, difficult is not necessarily a bad thing. Indeed an extraordinarily good thing can eventually arise from an horrific situation - a baby.

Well first of all I have to take umbrage with those figures. There is no way to say that every one of those foetus' would have gone full term if you take into account miscarriage and still births.

And as for a baby born of rape - how do you think it would affect the child when he found out he was born of violence and hatred? This would be another child in care - which is far from the best environment for a child - as I doubt the mother could bond with the child, as every time she looked at it, she'd see the face of the man who raped her.

And I doubt that the vast majority of women that have had an abortion think it's the easy option. Press hyperbole I would imagine.

And finally, when does a gamete become a foetus, become a baby? When is a baby no more than a collection of cells? Medical and social experts have set the time at cut of point at 24 weeks, and who am I to argue with them?

It's an emotive and difficult subject I agree, but the right to easy, available abortions are crucial to a modern society or we go back to the days of knitting needles stuck into a woman's uterus by a legion of Vera Drakes.

 

[* ORM *]

A fascinating and thought provoking debate and proof that you can have discussion without the need for petty bickering.

I respect other peoples views but my own thoughts are clear. Not only am I totally against abortion except in the most extreme cases (rape, medical for example) but the way cloning and cell research is going is causing global society to slip progessively into an area that we, partly, fought WWII for- the master-race and the search for "perfection". I have NO sympathy for girls that get themselves pregnant in this day and age and even less sympathy with the men that got them pregnant in the first place.

prisons, abortion, divorce, everything in life is made far too easy and the society my kids and grandchildren will grow up in is not somewhere I am looking forward to living.

 

[WestRoadShrimper]

The human race currently stands at 10,000 000 000 000 .

Few too many 0's there I think - population isn't 10 trillion, is it?

 

[osymandus]

Few too many 0's there I think - population isn't 10 trillion, is it?

Oops your right 10 Billion getting my powers confused ;)

 

[WestRoadShrimper]

Had a horrible moment of thinking I'd been teaching the bigger place values totally wrong :'( . Thank god for that!

 

[A Century United]

Oops your right 10 Billion getting my powers confused ;)

Presumably these, as you were stretching things a little....?

 

[MK Shrimper]

Oops your right 10 Billion getting my powers confused ;)

I thought it was 6 billion?

 

[chaco27saf]

If a woman is so irresponsible that she is either in no fit state or chooses not to use contraception then I'm sorry, she's made a mistake, she has to live with that.

I'd imagine parents who looked at their child and could only think of them as a mistake are much more likely to be abusive or neglectful towards the child. One of the big reasons I'm pro-choice is that I think parenthood is something that needs to be accepted and embraced whole heartedly. I hate the thought of a child coming into this world only to live a horrible life because their parents aren't ready to accept their responsibility.

As you mention adoption is a great alternative, but there is no way to force people who are going to be horrible towards their child to give the baby up for adoption. A child is only taken away if abuse has already occurred in most situations, and by the time child services steps in it is often too late, the child is already dead, seriously injured, or irreversibly emotionally scarred.

Furthermore, a woman who has an unwanted pregnancy I would imagine is much more likely to do things such as smoke, use drugs, etc. during that pregnancy which, sometimes won't have a lasting effect on the child but can also lead to serious birth defects and often times the child not surviving past infancy.

 

[osymandus]

I thought it was 6 billion?

CLoser to 10 im afraid as India and China both have populations closing on 1.5 Billion each !!!

 

[Napster]

I'd imagine parents who looked at their child and could only think of them as a mistake are much more likely to be abusive or neglectful towards the child. One of the big reasons I'm pro-choice is that I think parenthood is something that needs to be accepted and embraced whole heartedly. I hate the thought of a child coming into this world only to live a horrible life because their parents aren't ready to accept their responsibility.

As you mention adoption is a great alternative, but there is no way to force people who are going to be horrible towards their child to give the baby up for adoption. A child is only taken away if abuse has already occurred in most situations, and by the time child services steps in it is often too late, the child is already dead, seriously injured, or irreversibly emotionally scarred.

Furthermore, a woman who has an unwanted pregnancy I would imagine is much more likely to do things such as smoke, use drugs, etc. during that pregnancy which, sometimes won't have a lasting effect on the child but can also lead to serious birth defects and often times the child not surviving past infancy.

Pretty much what I believe.