Pre-Match Thread HMRC v SUFC - FINAL hearing on 1st March. DISMISSED

[Murkey_Mouse]

Why would I gloat? I'm terrified of this happening.

My intention for a Pheonix Club was to prove to outside investors and the council that we have fans that want a club and are willing to fight for that, Instead of sitting back and waiting for the ship to sink.
As fans, we could be setting up something that makes noise and makes us worth saving, and if the worst does happen and Ron kills our club, we have some building blocks to fall back on and acquire land, etc
Nothing to do with "I told yah" and has everything to do with the fact we are still here and we deserve a football club. and address that to the council who clearly don't want a pro team.

Unfortunately, this council just assumes we will all get on their trains and go and watch our "local team" West Ham play.

Southend United fans are going nowhere!!!

Council wouldn’t want to be associated to an City without a football club, plus they wouldn’t want to be an villains in Southend history book, that played their part in closing the club down.

 

[blueblueblue]

You have to admire the bloke how he constantly gets away with it, not many would.

 

[kentblues]

Bang on the money with this assessment.

The gamble is here that our money making project will be moving by the time summer rolls round and therefore we can meet all outstanding interest and running costs.

It not quite a gamble given stage 1 is already underway and pretty much complete. Had the development not started I would very much agree.

 

[TJC]

I thought bridging loans were normally at well above market average rates?

The only positive I see is that he is seeking a loan to cover future operating shortfalls rather than just to clear the HMRC debt....................or is it to pay off other debts such as our Accontants, Legal costs etc?

Yes, think you are correct. From a comment earlier I think the rate is 1.5 to 2% per month, so wondered if he was preferring to keep debt with HMRC @ 6% pa as it is significantley cheaper

 

[kentblues]

This is classic defence lawyers bringing evidence at the last minute which neither the judge or prosecutor has seen.The judge accepts at face value what the defence states and agrees to more time.But leaves us in a very much last case saloon.
It would be nice if Tom makes a statement to the timeline so the fan base doesn't go into melt down as I dread to think what will happen if the unthinkable happens

Appears the court and HMRC had it yesterday

 

[hlane17]

It not quite a gamble given stage 1 is already underway and pretty much complete. Had the development not started I would very much agree.

Depends on how you look at it. Any more delays (which are not unlikely with such big developments) and we could see more problems even if we make it past 1st March. The finance is being released stage-by-stage isn't it?

 

[Shrimperjohn]

I work as a commercial finance broker. An indicative terms letter is purely as it suggests. It sets out the potential loan terms that can be offered by the lender. It is in no way a formal agreement of any loan. The usual process that follows is this; The indicative terms are offered by the lender in a letter that also sets out the key information required by the lender to assess the request. The client accepts the indicative terms providing all necessary information to the lender. The lender undertakes financial and risk DD and if happy to proceed then issues the client with a formal loan agreement to sign.. Assuming the client signs then next steps are valuation instructions and appointment of solicitors by both the client and the lender to complete all legal DD with all terms and conditions of the loan and all legal DD to be confirmed as in order before the loan can be drawn.

A lot depends if the process has started yet or not. 42 days includes weekends so in terms of working days if the process is in its infancy then from my experience there is no a lot of time to get this loan in place.

 

[Westcliff Shrimper]

Did some digging on Topland Jupiter Limited -
Topland Group of Companies
Topland Group is one of the largest multi-billion pound, privately owned investment groups founded by Sol Zakay and Eddie Zakay. It is continuously looking to deploy its extensive cash reserves across a range of different sectors.

Topland’s principal activity is Commercial Real Estate, however, as a privately owned family office, it has significantly diversified over the last decade, and now invests in a number of sectors including hotels. Topland owns nine leased hotels as well as the iconic Royal Crescent Hotel in Bath.

Topland has a dedicated Structured Finance division providing lending and equity to residential, hotel and commercial developers. Topland’s investment expertise also extends to other business such as healthcare and natural resources.

Topland’s dynamic approach and highly experienced team leave them well-positioned to continue to look to actively seek further significant property and corporate acquisitions, and to diversify and expand its business through joint ventures and the provision of tailored lending facilities. Topland are targeting the purchase of hotel sites and strategic land plays for development either alone or in partnership.

Topland’s proven track record of adding significant value with timely disposals and achieving excellent returns, double digit IRRs across multiple sectors, make Topland the joint venture partner of choice.

• Latest accounts gives assets of £207.5m, with Net Assets of £26.1m. Net Profit of £2.7m.
• One part of a MASSIVE group.
• Lot's of intercompany lending going on. Sound familiar?
• Current have loans to customers of £199m - these are accounts to 31/05/2022 so as up to date as they could be. Borrow monies for these from other group companies.
• The £199m are all short term loans. Another £17m are due over one year, so this is a very posh payday lender for the real estate sector. Interest rates would be very high compared to traditional lenders.
• Topland Jupiter are part of Topland Group Holdings Limited which are based in the British Virgin Islands, so no way of seeing how much the group is worth, but as said by others, £5m to this lot is nothing.
• If a term sheet has been produced after this time, I would suggest it's because Ron's credit rating is in the toilet, and they've been negotiating terms including interest rates. He can't go anywhere else so they have him over a barrel.
• 
  
  Not much corporation tax paid by this lot!!!

 

[Dubai]

..for those that are still backing Ron, could they explain why please ? Surely it's time for him to put it up for sale to see if there are any potential buyers out there.

I know the loan is necessary, it's the fact we've got into a position where we need it that's the problem. There's also no indication we've actually sorted a loan out yet, the word used was "likely", which says to me that the paperwork hasn't been finalised yet.

Interest is a good thing if you take a loan out in order to fund money making projects because if they're successful then even with the interest repayments you've made a profit, and you wouldn't have been able to fund the project without the loan. Interest isn't a good thing if you're doing it to pay basic running costs because you aren't doing anything to make extra money during the loan period, so when the loan money runs out you'll still be struggling to pay basic running costs, only now you've also got interest repayments to worry about.

Like one of the biggest ever developments in Southend type project?

 

[kentblues]

I work as a commercial finance broker. An indicative terms letter is purely as it suggests. It sets out the potential loan terms that can be offered by the lender. It is in no way a formal agreement of any loan. The usual process that follows is this; The indicative terms are offered by the lender in a letter that also sets out the key information required by the lender to assess the request. The client accepts the indicative terms providing all necessary information to the lender. The lender undertakes financial and risk DD and if happy to proceed then issues the client with a formal loan agreement to sign.. Assuming the client signs then next steps are valuation instructions and appointment of solicitors by both the client and the lender to complete all legal DD with all terms and conditions of the loan and all legal DD to be confirmed as in order before the loan can be drawn.

A lot depends if the process has started yet or not. 42 days includes weekends so in terms of working days if the process is in its infancy then from my experience there is no a lot of time to get this loan in place.

In my experience a certain amount of previous discussions would have already taken place to allow the Indicative Terms Sheet to be issued as the terms would likely be very much bespoke to the borrower?

BWT earlier in the thread someone working previously providing bridging loans referenced a £7m loan sorted in 4 days.

 

[RHB]

..for those that are still backing Ron, could they explain why please ? Surely it's time for him to put it up for sale to see if there are any potential buyers out there.

I'm not too sure that anyone is actually backing Ron, but maybe they believe there is more chance of him cheating HMRC and eventually paying than there is of him selling up. That doesn't make them mad or bad, it just means they have a different view of the outcomes to you.

 

[londonblue]

The document the judge had not seen and HMRC had, but had not read, is an important one. If it was indeed an "Indicative Terms Sheet" this is typically an offer made to the borrower from the provider setting out the key terms of the offer.

Of course Ron would need to accept those terms? Possibly try and negotiate them? But if this is the case it would indicate an offer of finance nonetheless.

He hasn't really got a leg to stand on now in terms of negotiating the terms. They know if we don't take the loan we'll be out of business. I can't see them compromising. So, we either have already agreed to the terms in the document or we will have to soon.

 

[LBBlue]

Good read

https://www.aabrs.com/services/advice/what-is-process-timeframe-wind-up-company/

SUFC ltd of course has minimal assets (if any) and lots of debts - if we are wound up creditors will get sweet FA …..

 

[Holy Joe]

see post 306

Doesn't quite answer the question.

I guess what I'm getting at does the 'final' chance Ron has been given have a legal meaning, that the judge at the next hearing cannot go back on and give a further adjournment, if say all parties, including hmrc, agreed?

 

[Cricko]

Shrimpers Trust statement on The Echo site from CP.

Trust call for Southend United chairman Ron Martin to confirm plan​

THE Shrimpers Trust have urged Southend United chairman Ron Martin to confirm when bridging finance can be expected to save Blues.


The Shrimpers have 42 days to pay off their HMRC bill after seeing the winding up petition adjourned again this morning.
But the Trust now want Martin to reveal what will happen next at Roots Hall as fans continue to fear for the club’s future.
The statement said: “The Shrimpers Trust calls upon Ron Martin to urgently confirm when bridging finance is now to be expected, and how the club will be able to function until work begins on the new stadium at Fossetts Farm.


"We expect all salaries to be paid on time.
“We expect outstanding monies to suppliers to be resolved.
“We expect loans to be returned and the club’s accounts to be filed.
“If these expectations cannot be met, then bridging finance is not the solution.”

And the Trust also remain frustrated that the situation has yet to be sorted.
“We are disappointed that the can has been kicked down the road,” added the statement.
“The dark clouds continue to gather over Roots Hall.
“We need genuine hope that on-field delivery will be matched off it by the owner. “
But Martin has so far failed to deliver on the promises he made earlier on in the season.
“On 1st October 2022, when a Time To Pay agreement was cancelled by HMRC, Club owner Ron Martin declared it would be “weeks not months” before bridging finance was secured to discharge the debt in full,” said the Trust.

“On 31st December 2022, Chief Executive Tom Lawrence confirmed that bridging finance was the short-term solution to the club’s current financial issues, and that it would be used to pay off the HMRC debt, resulting in the winding-up petition being dismissed.

“Now, on 18th January 2023, that bridging finance still does not appear to have been finalised.
“The debt to HMRC is still to be discharged.
“A winding-up petition remains in place, with the next court date on 1st March 2023 marked “final”, together with a National League embargo.
“In our statement following the club’s previous appearance at the High Court, we requested that Ron Martin sorts out the mess that threatens the existence of our football club.
“Head Coach Kevin Maher echoed those sentiments in a recent interview with BBC Essex, calling on the chairman to produce in the same way his squad have.”


But, despite the huge off field issues, Blues are enjoying a fine season on the pitch.
And the Trust were keen to praise the management team and players for their efforts.
“Kevin and his coaching team, and the hardworking staff throughout the football club, deserve better,” said the Trust.

“On the pitch, we are firmly in the play-off picture with eyes fixed on a return to the EFL, as well as being possibly just three wins from an FA Trophy final at Wembley.
“That is remarkable, but this progress on the pitch risks being threatened, not just because there is currently no prospect of any essential signings in the event of injuries to key players, but because there is unrest amongst supporters about the ownership of the club.”

 

[Linda Loan Shark]

Our potential last ever game could be Torquay away.

But i reckon Ron will pay up on the 28th of Feb. I assume some of the £5m is to cover the next tax bill as it appears we have run out of chances with the HMRC with our poor history.

Its going to be close but i think we can make it.

 

[Barry.C]

The 72 year old Eddie Zakay is the Company Director of Topland Jupiter which registered as a Company in 2010. The parent Company however is Topland, ( Topland.co.uk )
Topland Group is one of the Worlds largest privately owned property and investment groups, headed by the Billionaire brothers Eddie and Sol Zakay. According to the times rich list in 2020, their net worth was £3.61bn
Their principal activity is in owning properties last noted as worth £3bn , plus posh regional hotels
" Topland has a dedicated Structured Finance division providing lending . We have now deployed over £1bn to some of the leading developers and investors across the UK. We provide bespoke funding solutions, with a quick credit process to residential, hotel and commercial developers." Typically funding ranges from £3m to £50m
Topland Jupiter, not to be confused with its larger parent Company , turnover last May was reported as £26m, from their principal activity of loan finance, including bridging finance

It is Company policy to assess credit risk and the collateral provided by new customers
before advancing loans, Credit ratings are taken into account??

Hopefully it is them behind the bridging loan, not to say its a done deal but clearly they have the resources

 

[undercovershrimper]

Doesn't quite answer the question.

I guess what I'm getting at does the 'final' chance Ron has been given have a legal meaning, that the judge at the next hearing cannot go back on and give a further adjournment, if say all parties, including hmrc, agreed?

The next hearing is the last and final hearing where we will either have paid or we will be wound up, the only other option is we have entered administration by that point, we won't get another agreement to pay HMRC as we broke the one we were in anyway which led to the current petition

 

[TJC]

There are 4 possible outcomes from todays hearing

1. Monies Paid - Petition Dismissed
2. Agreement to pay made with HMRC - Petition Dismissed
3. Ron Starts Administration Process - Petition Dismissed
4. If 1/2 or 3 hasn't happened Southend United Football Club Plc will be wound up

Wasn't entirely sure that administration protects us from HMRC, but guess it would?

 

[Maldon Shrimper]

The unthinkable ? ie getting Ron to write the statement

To clarify the unthinkable is the club not paying the tax bill and we go under and no longer exist