Pre-Match Thread HMRC v SUFC - FINAL hearing on 1st March. DISMISSED

[Smiffy]

If it is indeed Topland Jupiter the creditor of this £5m, then they are not new to loaning Ron companies money. They did so back in 2019 to Elounda LLP with a charge against it. Now satisfied.

 

[kentblues]

Indicative Terms could merely be a quote of how much it will cost, rather than an actual offer of credit ?

An "Indicative Terms Sheet" has a precise meaning relating to finance

 

[Maldon Shrimper]

This is classic defence lawyers bringing evidence at the last minute which neither the judge or prosecutor has seen.The judge accepts at face value what the defence states and agrees to more time.But leaves us in a very much last case saloon.
It would be nice if Tom makes a statement to the timeline so the fan base doesn't go into melt down as I dread to think what will happen if the unthinkable happens

 

[Southminster Shrimper]

Ron is a genius at the ol Chewbacca defence.

 

[Supa Shrimpa]

This is classic defence lawyers bringing evidence at the last minute which neither the judge or prosecutor has seen.The judge accepts at face value what the defence states and agrees to more time.But leaves us in a very much last case saloon.
It would be nice if Tom makes a statement to the timeline so the fan base doesn't go into melt down as I dread to think what will happen if the unthinkable happens

The unthinkable ? ie getting Ron to write the statement

 

[Holy Joe]

So when the judge says next time is final - is that final? Or is he just putting pressure on Ron? E. G. If Ron turned up on 1 March and says sorry m'lord haven't got cash today but look heres an agreement that says money will be in hmrc bank account tomorrow - does the judge have discretion to grant that extra day?

 

[Cricko]

An "Indicative Terms Sheet" has a precise meaning relating to finance

Indicative Term Sheet means a document describing the proposed basic business terms and conditions upon which the Bank proposes to provide the Financial Service sought by the Borrower, it being understood that the Indicative Term Sheet shall not be binding upon the Bank and shall in no event be deemed a commitment by the Bank to provide the Financial Service and shall not impose any obligation on Bank whatsoever.

Indicative Term Sheet Definition | Law Insider

Sample Contracts and Business Agreements

www.lawinsider.com

 

[Cricko]

So when the judge says next time is final - is that final? Or is he just putting pressure on Ron? E. G. If Ron turned up on 1 March and says sorry m'lord haven't got cash today but look heres an agreement that says money will be in hmrc bank account tomorrow - does the judge have discretion to grant that extra day?

I think final means final.

 

[kentblues]

So when the judge says next time is final - is that final? Or is he just putting pressure on Ron? E. G. If Ron turned up on 1 March and says sorry m'lord haven't got cash today but look heres an agreement that says money will be in hmrc bank account tomorrow - does the judge have discretion to grant that extra day?

The judge has complete discretion. But I am afraid its like referees- in fact worse because its almost impossible to sack them. So its a risk you would avoid at all costs if you could.

 

[hlane17]

I think final means final.

In my experience with courts from previous work, a final hearing has always been final. Not to say that judges can't change their minds however.

 

[undercovershrimper]

I think final means final.

as per insolvency lawyer I have spoken to at work today final does indeed mean final

 

[undercovershrimper]

So when the judge says next time is final - is that final? Or is he just putting pressure on Ron? E. G. If Ron turned up on 1 March and says sorry m'lord haven't got cash today but look heres an agreement that says money will be in hmrc bank account tomorrow - does the judge have discretion to grant that extra day?

see post 306

 

[kentblues]

Indicative Term Sheet means a document describing the proposed basic business terms and conditions upon which the Bank proposes to provide the Financial Service sought by the Borrower, it being understood that the Indicative Term Sheet shall not be binding upon the Bank and shall in no event be deemed a commitment by the Bank to provide the Financial Service and shall not impose any obligation on Bank whatsoever.

Indicative Term Sheet Definition | Law Insider

Sample Contracts and Business Agreements

www.lawinsider.com

Indeed thank you. It's an offer. You have to accept it. And until you do the lender can withdraw the offer (entirely normal as all sorts can happen post offer and pre acceptance). If you want the offer to be binding you have to sign it- its the way it works.

 

[Ricey]

Reckon we can get Chelsea to buy Hobson for £5m?

I’ll speak to Todd when I next see him. I could tell Jim Ratcliffe to buy us instead of Man United.

 

[Smiffy]

Quite how anyone can spin this as a positive is beyond me.

We have 42 days left to find £x (million) or we are likely liquidated.

A £5m loan is needed to cover tax liabilities and general day to day liabilities (staff salaries) which is yet to be agreed despite Ron saying it was weeks away on 1st Oct.

The embargo remains until at least 1st March.

The worry and anger amongst fans and staff will now be heightened.

A positive would have been Tax liabilities fully settled and petition dismissed. Plus staff fully paid and up to date. Failed again.

The loan needs to land now, not on 28th February. Enough with the lastminute.com taking the **** out of HMRC and the courts. No more.

 

[loz]

An offer of finance maybe, but an offer that is likely going to consider the risk involved with dealing with RM and a painfully slow-moving development at Fossetts.

High interest and short to medium term is what I'm picturing right now.

We might pay HMRC on the 1st March, but we are doing nothing other than shifting the debt to another debtor, who like HMRC will have no qualms in calling it in one day if unpaid.

It's almost certainly a short-term loan, the idea being to keep everything going until we can move out of Boots + Laces and the money gets released from Homes England or wherever it is for the Fossetts development.

this means presumably (and willing to stand corrected by people who know more about it than me) that Ron would be inclined to draw down on the loan as late as possible for two reasons:

1) probably saves a lot of interest by having the facility for a short a time as possible

2) once he takes the bridging loan the clock starts ticking until it needs to be repaid - Ron will want to have as much confidence as possible that the next set of funding will have been received before that happens!

all of which means he's incentivised to keep the club 'running' without the finance and creditors waiting for as long as poss. the court have now put a hard stop on that period.

 

[undercovershrimper]

Quite how anyone can see this as a positive is beyond me.

We have 42 days left to find £x (million) or we are likely liquidated.

A £5m loan is needed to cover tax liabilities and general day to day liabilities (staff salaries) which is yet to be agreed despite Ron saying it was weeks away on 1st Oct.

The embargo remains until at least 1st March.

The worry and anger amongst fans and staff will now be heightened.

Not quite see the 4 options I listed on post 306

Of the 4, No 2 is a non starter as the petition arose from us breaking a time to pay agreement

so we realistically have 3 options, 1 pay, 2 go into administration before March 1 or 3 we are wound up

 

[Grayson]

Quite how anyone can spin this as a positive is beyond me.

We have 42 days left to find £x (million) or we are likely liquidated.

A £5m loan is needed to cover tax liabilities and general day to day liabilities (staff salaries) which is yet to be agreed despite Ron saying it was weeks away on 1st Oct.

The embargo remains until at least 1st March.

The worry and anger amongst fans and staff will now be heightened.

A positive would of been Tax liabilities fully settled and petition dismissed. Failed again.

The loan needs to land now, not on 28th February.

I don't think anyone sees 42 days from oblivion as a positive.

However, it's fair to to assume that this is a 42 day period where something must happen.

That will either be the £5m loan, HMRC paid, staff repaid, embargo lifted etc. which would be good news as it means the stadium must be close. Otherwise, who would lend it now?

Or Ron will finally have to face the possibility of accepting help from the potential investors/buyers often referred to on here, which is the first step towards anyone wanting Ron out getting their wish.

The club being wound up suits nobody. If it did, Ron would have done it 20 years ago.

 

[BedfordShrimper]

Quite how anyone can see this as a positive is beyond me.

We have 42 days left to find £x (million) or we are likely liquidated.

A £5m loan is needed to cover tax liabilities and general day to day liabilities (staff salaries) which is yet to be agreed despite Ron saying it was weeks away on 1st Oct.

The embargo remains until at least 1st March.

The worry and anger amongst fans and staff will now be heightened.

A positive would of been Tax liabilities fully settled and petition dismissed. Failed again.

The loan needs to land now, not on 28th February. Enough with the lastminute.com taking the **** out of HMRC and the courts. No more.

I hear you Smiffy. For me, I am just trying to find anything that can be construed as a positive in this shower of negativity that Uncle Ron has drummed up.
The fact there is possibly someone who will lend Ron money to keep the taxman at bay is a slight positive. Admittedly what happens after the loan is taken out (if it is) is a completely different story, but would mean there is an SUFC after March 1st.... hopefully.

Every single robbing Peter to pay Paul that Ron takes out takes us that bit closer to the fabled stadium, at which point some real funds as opposed to loans may become available.

 

[Cricko]

All At Sea fanzine report from the court today,


@AllAtSeaFanzine

Here follows a dedicated thread on the court hearing this morning. The whole thing (for SUFC) lasted 8 mins and 53 seconds.
·

Ron arrived bang on 10:30 flanked by Anna Firth and Sir James Duddridge. I didn't recognise anyone else in their party. Ron stood at the back of the room with Anna (seating was limited) and Sir James found a single seat in the public gallery. As far as I could tell the barrister (though maybe not the legal firm) and judge were both new to the case. HMRC were petitioning for a winding up order, not just because there had been "no payment so far" but because of the repeated history of [untimely and inadequate] payments in recent history...

The club had a two pronged defence: heartstrings and cashflow. No need for me to tell you which one was more relevant in a high court insolvency hearing.The heartstrings approach (framed as context) was about the club as an asset and the proximity of the new development and how this would allow the club to be self-sustaining. The MPs in the room had written to the judge in support of this and a letter from the head....of
@SouthendCityC was included to reinforce the cultural and historical significance of SUFC to the city. As fans, this doesn't really wash with us. a) we've heard it all before and b) the clubs cultural significance is as low as it has ever been because of Ron...

On the financial front the legal team references the 4 avenues of financial support stated at the prior hearing. Two of those had proved to be dead ends and one, a land sale with a price contingent on planning permission being granted, had hit a road block...While the land sale wasn't off the table, it was unlikely to be appealed in a timeline that would please HMRC or, crucially, the crown. This meant that the fabled bridging loan was our only realistic option...

The club had submitted and indicative terms sheet to court on the 17th. This is a document that confirms that the lender (we believe that this is Topland Jupiter) has agreed the terms of the loan but it is still subject to some internal processes and thus the funds haven't... been released to the borrower (us). This loan was stated as £5m and was for the purposes of general working capital and the payment of the debt to HMRC. One has to assume that the debt is a significant proportion of this amount but regrettably the exact amount owed...wasn't explicitly stated. The club's legal team were requesting a 42 day adjournment (until 1st March 2023) for this loan to be processed, recieved, and the debt to HMRC paid. There were legal representatives present on behalf of those owed money by SUFC. They were happy...for the adjournment but HMRC were not, again (fairly) citing a poor payment history. The judge granted the adjournment, stating that the documents submitted showed a "real prospect of monies coming in" but marked the adjournment final in acknowledgement of the clubs....history with HMRC. The club now has 42 days to secure this loan and pay HMRC.

There will be no more stays of execution. We have been drinking in the last chance saloon and last orders have been called.