General Boxing Thread

[stewart]

surely they can order a rematch

 

[Ricey]

surely they can order a rematch

No point, Taylor has already said he is moving up to 147. And the likelihood of the sanctioning bodies of all 4 belts is slim to none. They will all have their own fights lined up for the vacant belts so they can get their sanctioning fees.

I urge everyone to take an hour and 20 to listen to the lads from Fight Disciple’s on their latest pod.

 

[Ricey]

Just caught up with the fight. I’ve been saying this for years now, unless there is severe consequences for those who have gravely misjudged a fight, then this kind of stuff will continue indefinitely.

There is only two reasons for scoring that fight as a Josh Taylor win. Incompetence or corruption.

I scored it 114-111 and even then I felt I was somewhat generous with a few of the rounds gave to Taylor.

Glad to see the BBBoC are going to investigate it, but I don’t expect much to come out of it. They certainly won’t reverse the decision & even if they did, that career defining moment has already been cruelly ripped away from Catterall. First thing they can do though, is send Ian John Lewis packing. He’s by far the worst official we have in Britain and his CV is littered with mind-boggling, controversial moments.

I genuinely don’t think the BBBoC have a genuinely good ref/judge in their Arsenal. But the system is flawed. They train new ref’s on judging by ensuring the get the same score as an existing judge. Well that’s all good and well if the ref scoring the fight isn’t incompetent or corrupt!

I see Frank has said he won’t have any British judges at the Fury v Whyte fight. Great! Let’s hope others follow suit!

 

[Ricey]

Just as I was thinking how can I watch boxing anymore after the Taylor / Catteral fight along comes Gill to remind me why I love this sport
And just like that Okolie reverts to type after looking good in his last 2 fights

Outstanding from Gill! And outstanding from Dave Caldwell to have the faith in him. I could have seen other trainers throwing the towel in!

Also anyone that remembers WWF (WWE now) that was an understanding DDT.

 

[Ricey]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1498672347196370947

I love Tyson!

 

[WhiteNoise]

Just caught up with the fight. I’ve been saying this for years now, unless there is severe consequences for those who have gravely misjudged a fight, then this kind of stuff will continue indefinitely.

There is only two reasons for scoring that fight as a Josh Taylor win. Incompetence or corruption.

I scored it 114-111 and even then I felt I was somewhat generous with a few of the rounds gave to Taylor.

Glad to see the BBBoC are going to investigate it, but I don’t expect much to come out of it. They certainly won’t reverse the decision & even if they did, that career defining moment has already been cruelly ripped away from Catterall. First thing they can do though, is send Ian John Lewis packing. He’s by far the worst official we have in Britain and his CV is littered with mind-boggling, controversial moments.

There is a third way, and that comes down to the inconsistent application of the scoring system, which is opaque at best.

I'm not an expert on scoring boxing but my understanding is that there isn't a hierarchy or order of priority between "effective aggression", "ring generalship", "defense", and "hard and clean punches". So we can all watch Catterall land loads of great punches but a ref could be looking at those other criteria and weighing things up differently. That isn't incompetence or corruption (necessarily, not ruling out those things in this case) but it's vague criteria leading to different conclusions being reached by each judge.

I felt Catterall let his foot off the gas a bit in the closing rounds and that wasn't a good move. I had Catterall as a clear winner although perhaps a little closer than some seemed to think it was. The problem is that we can watch boxing and see who clearly 'won', but that's not the same as how boxing is being scored.

Think they need to take a look at MMA where their scoring criteria is clearer, because it has prioritized criteria, and is, therefore, simpler to apply and to understand:

Unified Rules - Learn the Rules of MMA | C.O.M.M.A.N.D.

mmareferee.com

 

[Ricey]

There is a third way, and that comes down to the inconsistent application of the scoring system, which is opaque at best.

I'm not an expert on scoring boxing but my understanding is that there isn't a hierarchy or order of priority between "effective aggression", "ring generalship", "defense", and "hard and clean punches". So we can all watch Catterall land loads of great punches but a ref could be looking at those other criteria and weighing things up differently. That isn't incompetence or corruption (necessarily, not ruling out those things in this case) but it's vague criteria leading to different conclusions being reached by each judge.

I felt Catterall let his foot off the gas a bit in the closing rounds and that wasn't a good move. I had Catterall as a clear winner although perhaps a little closer than some seemed to think it was. The problem is that we can watch boxing and see who clearly 'won', but that's not the same as how boxing is being scored.

Think they need to take a look at MMA where their scoring criteria is clearer, because it has prioritized criteria, and is, therefore, simpler to apply and to understand:

Unified Rules - Learn the Rules of MMA | C.O.M.M.A.N.D.

mmareferee.com

You’re right there isn’t consistency with the scoring.

The WBC came up with the ‘10 Point Must System’. This is the system that was invented for boxing scoring. Unfortunately other sanctioning bodies don’t follow it the same way. The BBBoC has 3 lines in their rules on the scoring of fights. The WBA’s system is completely different and the IBF don’t even have any evidence of how they score fights.

But I have to agree with @GBJ on this one it is either incompetence or corruption. I’ve watched the fight back, no commentary and I have Taylor 3 rounds, if I was being extremely biased to Taylor 4 rounds. And after comparing the compubox stats they match up with what my eyes saw! In the rounds I scored to Catterall he landed the most punches and power punches. It was not close, even Howard Foster’s card was a joke. Without the knockdown he scored it a draw.

People I respect in boxing, journalists, boxers, trainers all have the same view as me. And some were ringside with the same view as the judges. Some were listening to Sky, some had the US commentary and some didn’t listen at all. All of them came to the same conclusion, Catterall won and it wasn’t close. At no point did anyone say before the cards “ooh this could be close”. Everyone who knows boxing was awaiting “and the new”. Which is exactly why there has been such an uproar about it! Even the Scottish fans who are as biased as they come think Catterall won!

MMA have a good system and it is consistent as all of the different branches of MMA like the UFC adhere to it. Unfortunately when you have people like the BBBoC, WBC, WBA, WBO, IBF, IBO, EBU on top of all of the commissions in America who sanction fights. It is almost impossible to get everyone to agree on one set of rules for scoring.

We need all the crusty old ****s in the sport at the top level to **** off. Get some new
, young blood in, those that have fought and been on the end of shocking decisions to help change the game. Bin all of the belts and build off one sanctioning body. One champion in each weight division, one ranking system that is followed. No.1 fights no.2. No.2 has **** his pants, right no.3 you now get the chance. Not no.1 fights the no.1 fighter from Hungary who is ranked 215th in the world.

There is corruption and incompetence, we need to address this before we look at consistency.

 

[WhiteNoise]

There is corruption and incompetence, we need to address this before we look at consistency.

No, you can't address the corruption and incompetence if you have a vague scoring system that allows those things to exist. How can you prove corruption and incompetence when the scoring system is vague and enables different judges to value different aspects differently?! Tightening up how bouts are scored is the quickest and simplest way to fix this issue, then it'll make corruption very difficult, and judging will be more straight forward. The problem is that the BBBoC don't want to fix it necessarily, or at least have little incentive to fix it. The pressure needs to come from the punters and fans because ultimately it's turning into a farce.

It's a similar parallel to what is happening in F1.

 

[Ricey]

No, you can't address the corruption and incompetence if you have a vague scoring system that allows those things to exist. How can you prove corruption and incompetence when the scoring system is vague and enables different judges to value different aspects differently?! Tightening up how bouts are scored is the quickest and simplest way to fix this issue, then it'll make corruption very difficult, and judging will be more straight forward. The problem is that the BBBoC don't want to fix it necessarily, or at least have little incentive to fix it. The pressure needs to come from the punters and fans because ultimately it's turning into a farce.

It's a similar parallel to what is happening in F1.

Well that’s your opinion but with so many different organisations and governing bodies. It is not a quick fix, that’s a long term fix. The quick fix would be to suspend the 3 judges from officiating on any top level events. Give some up and coming officials an opportunity.

 

[WhiteNoise]

Well that’s your opinion but with so many different organisations and governing bodies. It is not a quick fix, that’s a long term fix. The quick fix would be to suspend the 3 judges from officiating on any top level events. Give some up and coming officials an opportunity.

You can’t easily suspend them from their job unless you have proof that they’ve not met their contractual obligations. You’re not going to find a brown envelope of cash. They’ll leave themselves open to tribunals, and what’s to say that ‘some up and coming officials’ will be any better? And who will want to come through if they see people being sacked?

An investigation into what has happened is obviously necessary to understand what has happened. I expect that they’ll say that the bout was scored following the established process, which isn’t satisfactory from a fans perspective but is probably factual because a judge isn’t just going to make those numbers up, they’ll be plausible.

The definition of corruption is when there’s a vacuum of authority. The scoring system at the moment doesn’t allow for a clear process to be followed to determine a winner or loser, and that’s why we’re in this situation.

 

[Ricey]

You can’t easily suspend them from their job unless you have proof that they’ve not met their contractual obligations. You’re not going to find a brown envelope of cash. They’ll leave themselves open to tribunals, and what’s to say that ‘some up and coming officials’ will be any better? And who will want to come through if they see people being sacked?

An investigation into what has happened is obviously necessary to understand what has happened. I expect that they’ll say that the bout was scored following the established process, which isn’t satisfactory from a fans perspective but is probably factual because a judge isn’t just going to make those numbers up, they’ll be plausible.

The definition of corruption is when there’s a vacuum of authority. The scoring system at the moment doesn’t allow for a clear process to be followed to determine a winner or loser, and that’s why we’re in this situation.

Of course they can suspend them! They are investigating it. They could stop them from officiating high profile bouts. They’re not full time officials they do this on the side.

It’s not all about brown envelopes. Who do you think pays for the officials expenses? Their steak dinners? Their accommodation? Because I can tell you one thing it’s not the BBBoC. It’s the promoters! They know who the favoured fighter is, they know who that promoter or manager wants to progress. Which fighter is their cash cow. Which one is more marketable.

The ****ing tickets for the fight didn’t even have Jack Catterall’s name on it FFS! Everything points everyone, including the fans to a walkover for Josh Taylor. As we saw in this thread. Pale Blue Dot said Taylor was going to smash him! The atmosphere and the crowd can also influence the judges.

Frank Warren is taking the right approach he doesn’t want any British judges in the Fury v Whyte fight!

Corruption isn’t all about brown envelopes!

You look at the judges score cards, the compubox stats and watch the round one by one. You tell me how they’ve come up with some of those scores! Because even Stevie Wonder could’ve done a better job than some of those inept and incompetent judges!

 

[GBJ]

Most people will recall Howard Foster’s controversial stoppage of Froch & Groves’ first fight.

What most people won’t remember is Adam Booth (Groves’ trainer at the time), publicly lifting the lid on the BBBoC for not allowing Howard Foster to make a public statement admitting he was a bit hasty, as he had wanted to, according to Booth.

In a sport with so many allegations of corruption, one could be excused for thinking that the opportunity to be transparent could be seen as a good thing. Not to the British Board though.

Still, I’m sure this investigation will be different.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

Tyson Fury was talking of his upcoming fight with Whyte, said there'll be no British judges at this fight for sure. He joked, he might knock him out and they might give a draw.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

Any subjective point scoring is likely to be contentious, too often.
Transparency will help, especially if the marking of each round, is posted in real time, between the rounds.

 

[Ricey]

Most people will recall Howard Foster’s controversial stoppage of Froch & Groves’ first fight.

What most people won’t remember is Adam Booth (Groves’ trainer at the time), publicly lifting the lid on the BBBoC for not allowing Howard Foster to make a public statement admitting he was a bit hasty, as he had wanted to, according to Booth.

In a sport with so many allegations of corruption, one could be excused for thinking that the opportunity to be transparent could be seen as a good thing. Not to the British Board though.

Still, I’m sure this investigation will be different.

Listening to an interview with Robert Smith that seems doubtful.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

This fight we are talking about wasn't an interpretation of the scoring issue. They are getting everyone to argue about that. The interpretation of scoring has been the excuse used for a clearly bent result, IMO, allegedly. Robert Smith more or less saying the public are stupid. Saying they may be distracted by kids, etc, while watching the fight. whereas the judges are watching every round. Absolute nonsense and a cover up. We would be stupid if we believed the excuses he's coming up with.

 

[Seaside Shrimper]

Hi all.

I am taking part in an Ultimate White Collar Boxing match raising money for Cancer Research UK.

I have never done anything like this before but I am really enjoying the training, although I am incredibly nervous about the fight itself. I have never been in a fight before, although I have been beaten up a few times!

The one thing that has stopped me from ducking the challenge has been the amazing generosity of everyone that has donated.

I recently auctioned off my entrance music and got lumbered with Culture Club's 'Do You Really Want To Hurt Me'

If you are able to, you can donate to the cause by clicking on the following link. If you are interested in coming along to watch the event there is also a link to a website selling tickets on my JustGiving page.

https://justgiving.com/fundraising/mattadlington

No worries if not, just exploring every avenue to raise some money. If this sort of post is frowned upon please let me know and I will delete.

Thanks in advance for anything you can do!

 

[GBJ]

Corruption and/or incompetence.

 

[Ricey]

Corruption and/or incompetence.

One line says we agree that the result was right.

Then the other line they are writing to the governing bodies to request Catterall gets made mandatory for all of the belts.

Why if you thought the result was correct?

Rotten to the core!

 

[Ricey]

Also turns out the president of the WBO who sanctioned the fight didn’t approve of Victor Loughlin and Ian John Lewis as judges.