Gaza

[Lord Football]

Now, the thing here is that frankly Israel doesn't give a flying **** what anything thinks and will do what it likes regardless of any international wringing of hands. Of course the international community won't sanction Israel in any fashion because of the pro Israeli lobbyists at Captol Hill and thus Israel continues to do what it likes.

The world is up in arms because Russia or rebels with Russian backing may have a shot a plane down, but Israel sticks a missile on a hospital and the worst reaction is some finger waving.

Double standards? I'd should say so.

But Hamas equally are no angels and seem unable to hold a ceasefire for more than a few hours. Though I am not sure why there is such outrage that they hide amongst their own. Is it really expected that they walk around with TARGET written on their shirt in a big empty field so they can picked off with no civilian casualities. Condemn the US I might, but at least they make an attempt to not kill civilians when targetting members of Al Qaeda etc...

There are no rights here anymore. Just wrongs. The reasons behind this conflict have been lost in time and its now just a continuous cycle of Hamas firing rockets into Israel (that rarely kill and cannot be targetted) and Israel retaliating by flattening areas of Gaza, building walls and cutting off the water.... and so it goes on.

Is there a long term or permanent diplomatic solution to this? Probably not. Fortunately, we have a moderate government in Tehran rather than the previous frankly crackpot regime, so there is little chance of this escalating further than it already has.

 

[Lord Football]

Israel is hated by huge parts of the world because they are either rabid anti-semites committed to Israel's annihilation or useful idiots like your good self who believe the garbage spouted by the BBC, CNN etc. If they robustly defended themselves or not, they would still be hated.

Or actually just smart enough not to believe the Fox News Worldview.....

 

[A Century United]

Fortunately, we have a moderate government in Tehran rather than the previous frankly crackpot regime, so there is little chance of this escalating further than it already has.

You surely don't really believe that the current Iranian regime is in any way moderate??? Sure they talk the talk, but there has been precious little evidence that they walk the walk, and while Ayatollah Khamenei is the De Facto leader, they remain as unpredictable and dangerous as ever. I see that he has called for the arming of Gaza.... which is a bit rich as Hamas' rockets, anti-tank weapons, RPG's, machine guns, explosives, sniper rifles and copious ammunition have all come from Iran already.

 

[Pubey]

You surely don't really believe that the current Iranian regime is in any way moderate??? Sure they talk the talk, but there has been precious little evidence that they walk the walk, and while Ayatollah Khamenei is the De Facto leader, they remain as unpredictable and dangerous as ever. I see that he has called for the arming of Gaza.... which is a bit rich as Hamas' rockets, anti-tank weapons, RPG's, machine guns, explosives, sniper rifles and copious ammunition have all come from Iran already.

Well how else can they protect the hundreds of civilians being killed by the Israelis?

Fantastic post by Lord Football

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Well how else can they protect the hundreds of civilians being killed by the Israelis?

Fantastic post by Lord Football

They could protect their civilians by not launching rockets at Israel. Utterly clueless....

 

[A Century United]

Well how else can they protect the hundreds of civilians being killed by the Israelis?

Fantastic post by Lord Football

Are you serious Pubey? Really?? Have you considered, as Rusty says, that if they didn't dig tunnels by the score with the sole purpose of attacking Israel, that if they didn't launch rockets by the thousand with the intention (and it's not their fault they don't succeed more often) of killing civilians, they wouldn't need to defend themselves at all. Why do people so easily forget that Hamas are no different from ISIS or any of the other bloodthirsty murderous brutal and cold-blooded terrorists we happily condemn wherever else they appear?

Please, please read the 40 Questions I will shortly post below, and think carefully about each of them - you might see the conflict in a slightly different light.

 

[A Century United]

Forty questions for the international media in Gaza


Reprinted with the permission of the author from the (excellent) British “Harry’s place” blog.

1. Have you or any of your colleagues been intimidated by Hamas?

2. Do you feel restricted in your ability to ‘say what you see’ in Gaza?

3. How do you feel about the Spanish journalist who said Hamas would kill any journalist if they filmed rocket fire?

4. Has Hamas pressured you to delete anything you have published?

5. Has Hamas ever threatened to take your phone, laptop or camera?

6. Has Hamas ever taken the phone, laptop or camera of a colleague in Gaza?

7. Have you seen Hamas fighters in Gaza?

8. If yes, why have you not directly reported Hamas fighting activity when you are eye-witnesses in Gaza, but rather indirectly reported about what the IDF says they Hamas has done?

9. Are you scared to publish photos of Hamas operatives on your Twitter page, or broadcast images of Hamas fighting and aggression on your news channel?

10. Have you published any photos of terrorists launching rockets in Gaza? If so, are these images being turned down by your newspaper or broadcaster?

11. Have you thought of interviewing the traumatised residents of southern Israel?

12. When Israeli authorities say that most of the dead in Gaza are terrorists, and Hamas says most of the dead in Gaza are civilians, how do you differentiate?

13. When Hamas Health Ministry statistics contradict Hamas’ own propaganda and reveal that mostly men of fighting age have died so far in Gaza, does it give you pause for thought?

14. Is an underage armed terrorist still counted as a terrorist or a child when killed? Or both? Do you explain to your readers how this is possible?

15. Have you put to Hamas spokespersons that firing rockets from civilian areas in a war situation will draw return fire and lead to the death of civilians?

16. Nick Casey of the Wall Street Journal tweeted: “you have to wonder with the shelling, how patients at Shifa hospital feel as Hamas uses it as a safe place to see media.” Never mind wondering; did you ask any patients how they feel?

17. And how do you feel about the fact that Casey subsequently deleted his tweet?

18. Russia Today journalist Harry Fear mentioned rocket-launching sites near his hotel. Have you noticed any terrorists or terror bases near your hotel?

19. How do you feel about Fear’s expulsion from Gaza, for tweeting about the rocket launches from civilian areas? Are you worried that you might also be expelled from Gaza?

20. Did you see any Hamas terror personnel inside Al-Shifa hospital?

21. Have you interviewed a Hamas spokesperson inside Al-Shifa?

22. Have you seen any rocket-launching sites in or around the vicinity of a hospital?

23. Have you interviewed hospital staff or patients as to how they feel about their buildings being used for terror activity?

24. Hamas’ command and control bunker is underneath Al Shifa hospital. Is this worth reporting? Have you asked to gain access to it, so you can interview Hamas commanders?

25. French newspaper Liberation reported that Hamas’ Al Qassam offices are next to the emergency room at Shifa hospital, before deleting the article. Was the reporter right to delete the article, and will the information appear in the media at some point still?

26. When the missile hit Al-Shati hospital where children were killed, did you see Hamas operatives collecting the debris of the fallen Palestinian rocket, as Gabriel Barbati reported? Did Barbati pick up on something you missed?

27. Barbati prefaced his tweet by writing “Out of Gaza, far from Hamas retaliation.” Will you also report differently about Gaza when you are out of Gaza, far from Hamas retaliation?

28. Can live journalism by reporters who are scared of retaliation from the authorities they are reporting about really count as pure journalism, or is journalism in that context fundamentally compromised?

29. Have you seen or heard evidence of Hamas using civilians as human shields, by forcing or “encouraging” them to stay inside or enter into a building that has received a knock on the roof?

30. Have you seen or heard evidence of Hamas storing weapons inside schools, houses, flats, mosques or hospitals?

31. Have you interviewed Gazan residents to find out if they have – or know someone who has – a tunnel dug underneath their house? How do they feel about this?

32. Have you tried to interview any of the parents of the 160 Palestinian children who died building the terror tunnels?

33. Have you asked Hamas spokespersons why they are setting out to murder children by firing rockets towards civilian populations?

34. Have you interviewed any UNRWA officials about why Hamas are storing weapons in their schools, and how the weapons got there?

35. Are you currently investigating how Hamas rockets ended up in UNRWA schools?

36. Are you currently investigating why UNRWA returned rockets to Hamas and their police force?

37. When Hamas breaks a ceasefire with Israel – as it has done 6 times – how easy is it to report on this from Gaza?

38. Is there any anti-Hamas sentiment in Gaza, and how is it expressed?

39. Were you aware that Hamas chose to execute dozens of anti-war protesters in Gaza, and did you not consider this to be worth
reporting?

40. Is international media reporting from Gaza free from pressure and intimidation, or is there a real problem – and if so, how will you address it?

 

[Lord Football]

John Snow, a international journalist, more than respected in the UK as C4's news anchor......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR1LGoNg5p4


Anyhow, I am bowing out of this discussion. (hooray). It has no resolution, there are entrenched positions and I find the killing of civilians simply upsetting.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I see that even that nice Mr Clegg is now calling for the conflict in Gaza to stop.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/01/israel-hamas-gaza-resolve-conflict

 

[A Century United]

John Snow, a international journalist, more than respected in the UK as C4's news anchor......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR1LGoNg5p4


Anyhow, I am bowing out of this discussion. (hooray). It has no resolution, there are entrenched positions and I find the killing of civilians simply upsetting.

Jon Snow calling Hamas for using human shields and causing civilian deaths by refusing to stop attacks....

http://www.channel4.com/news/hamas-israel-started-this-conflict-in-1948-video

 

[Pubey]

They could protect their civilians by not launching rockets at Israel. Utterly clueless....

I was being facetious. Sorry if it wasn't particularly clear.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Jon Snow calling Hamas for using human shields and causing civilian deaths by refusing to stop attacks....

http://www.channel4.com/news/hamas-israel-started-this-conflict-in-1948-video

Deleted.

See response below.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Jon Snow calling Hamas for using human shields and causing civilian deaths by refusing to stop attacks....

http://www.channel4.com/news/hamas-israel-started-this-conflict-in-1948-video

Since you mentioned (indirectly)the starting point of the modern conflict in 1948.. ..please allow me to chip in with my tuppenceworth.

The kibbutz I used to work on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar'am was founded just after the 1948 conflict.

Although the wiki entry doesn't make this clear,kibbutz Bar'am was built on land owned by Palestinian farmers who fled for their lives in the 1948 war.

These farmers were never offered compensation for their land, nor have their descendents ever been offered the right of return to Israel.

This type of situation was of course widespread elsewhere in Israel in 1948 (and indeed again in 1967).

Until issues like this, (and of course many more recent ones),are addressed in a peaceful and civilised manner, there will,unfortunately,never be peace in the region.

 

[A Century United]

Since you mentioned (indirectly)the starting point of the modern conflict in 1948.. ..please allow me to chip in with my tuppenceworth.

The kibbutz I used to work on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar'am was founded just after the 1948 conflict.

Although the wiki entry doesn't make this clear,kibbutz Bar'am was built on land owned by Palestinian farmers who fled for their lives in the 1948 war.

These farmers were never offered compensation for their land, nor have their descendents ever been offered the right of return to Israel.

This type of situation was of course widespread elsewhere in Israel in 1948 (and indeed again in 1967).

Until issues like this, (and of course many more recent ones),are addressed in a peaceful and civilised manner, there will,unfortunately,never be peace in the region.

Absolutely but this won't happen while the Arab nations are using the Palestinians as pawns, treating them as badly or worse in their own countries as they are in Gaza/West Bank, and refusing to acknowledge that Israel is here to stay. As has been said already, more money is being spent fighting this unending war than would be needed to give fair compensation to those who lost out in 1948. I do not back every Israeli policy or action by any means, but they are at least prepared to negotiate for peace, as they already have with Egypt and Jordan.

 

[londonblue]

Since you mentioned (indirectly)the starting point of the modern conflict in 1948.. ..please allow me to chip in with my tuppenceworth.

The kibbutz I used to work on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar'am was founded just after the 1948 conflict.

Although the wiki entry doesn't make this clear,kibbutz Bar'am was built on land owned by Palestinian farmers who fled for their lives in the 1948 war.

These farmers were never offered compensation for their land, nor have their descendents ever been offered the right of return to Israel.

This type of situation was of course widespread elsewhere in Israel in 1948 (and indeed again in 1967).

Until issues like this, (and of course many more recent ones),are addressed in a peaceful and civilised manner, there will,unfortunately,never be peace in the region.

That is simply not true, and was dealt with in the wiki page I provided a link to earlier. It seems to me that you're not reading the items that don't agree with your view.

 

[steveo]

That is simply not true, and was dealt with in the wiki page I provided a link to earlier. It seems to me that you're not reading the items that don't agree with your view.

Barna in selective answering scandal? Surely not.

 

[londonblue]

Now, the thing here is that frankly Israel doesn't give a flying **** what anything thinks and will do what it likes regardless of any international wringing of hands. Of course the international community won't sanction Israel in any fashion because of the pro Israeli lobbyists at Captol Hill and thus Israel continues to do what it likes.

The world is up in arms because Russia or rebels with Russian backing may have a shot a plane down, but Israel sticks a missile on a hospital and the worst reaction is some finger waving.

Double standards? I'd should say so.

But Hamas equally are no angels and seem unable to hold a ceasefire for more than a few hours. Though I am not sure why there is such outrage that they hide amongst their own. Is it really expected that they walk around with TARGET written on their shirt in a big empty field so they can picked off with no civilian casualities. Condemn the US I might, but at least they make an attempt to not kill civilians when targetting members of Al Qaeda etc...

There are no rights here anymore. Just wrongs. The reasons behind this conflict have been lost in time and its now just a continuous cycle of Hamas firing rockets into Israel (that rarely kill and cannot be targetted) and Israel retaliating by flattening areas of Gaza, building walls and cutting off the water.... and so it goes on.

Is there a long term or permanent diplomatic solution to this? Probably not. Fortunately, we have a moderate government in Tehran rather than the previous frankly crackpot regime, so there is little chance of this escalating further than it already has.

Have a read of this by Colonel Richard Kemp, who happens to be a very highly experienced retired soldier from the British Army. It's always good to get an expert's opinion, rather than just assume we know what we're talking about:

The truth about Gaza’s civilian casualties: Essay by Col. Richard Kemp

Of course, most people will dismiss this because it doesn't fit in with their anti-Israel agenda.

Of course no-one will believe this either:

Hamas rockets, not the IDF, killed children

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Taking Sides in a New Middle East

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

The tunnels are destroyed, the rockets are limited in number now and the border is well patrolled; this means Hamas has had it teeth blunted-all good stuff.
When the tunnels restart or weapons, explosives are seized entering Gaza the cease-fire will be over.
The West needs to get tough with the suppliers of equipment and terror support with renewed vigour- NOW.
And after the donkey (Hamas) has been hit with the stick there needs to be the cake shown and fed to the Palestinians.

 

[Benfleet A1]

All supplies entering into Gaza should be monitored by the UN if it isn't already and these tunnels should be destroyed as soon as they are discovered. Oh, and on a personal belief of stamping on the problem, for every rocket launched at Israel then Israel is allowed to retaliate with 100 tank shells. Hamas will get the message sooner or later.