Gareth Southgate, rewarding failure or providing security?

[This Shrimpers' a keeper]

There appears to an assumption that if the manager is a winner then that translates directly to the squad, which I can understand. But As I noted early, I'm not sure any manager, from anywhere, let alone England, could significantly enough impact the English players GENERAL mentality. Winners already have this special skill within them I believe, and xan be coached, however not the best if the best. So for me, this is far from just about if GS decided to stay or not, or who is best placed to replace him.

 

[stewart]

The England team has already earnt respect ,they now need a manager to take them to the next step as they got many years ago back in the mid 60s, I dont believe Southgate is the person to do that,i also dont follow that it has to be an Englishman, .Many international sides are now managed by foriegners, Unless FIFA made it a rule the all countries national teams should be managed by a person from that country.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Irish, NI, iirc?

Is he? No idea.Still hope my 1st choice will take over probably in a couple of years time ie Eddie Howe.

 

[southendkid]

Offer the job to the Liverpool manager or Guardiola

Klopp I could see doing well but unless he changed his style Guardiola would be an mediocre international manager. The way his teams play requires so much time on the training pitch he'd never get an international side playing his way he wants in the limited time he gets with them, even his first season at Man City was unremarkable, it was only in his second once he'd had a year of drilling the players that they started becoming a different class to everyone else.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

But won the champions league which is the biggest club competition in the world. I know which trophy I would like to win.

I'm not totally against southgate, he done an OK job. Can't really say he done poor job but he isn't a winner though. 4 wins out of 24 games against sides in the top 10 is poor, that record doesn't fill me with much confidence England are about to win trophies.

A competition also won by Capello and yet Southgate is a more successful international manager than Capello.

I think the bigger problem would be that top managers at their peak generally want to manage in club football and not internationally. And I think they have a preference for managing their home nation.


To understand that stat better of the 24 games, how many were friendlies (or Nations League games), how many dead rubbers where we had already qualified (or 3rd/4th place play-offs) when we weren’t necessarily playing a full strength team?
How many were draws?
Does penalties or extra time (as in the final) count as a draw or a win?
And for context how many top 10 sides have World Champions Argentina beaten in that period?

 

[sufc4life21]

A competition also won by Capello and yet Southgate is a more successful international manager than Capello.

I think the bigger problem would be that top managers at their peak generally want to manage in club football and not internationally. And I think they have a preference for managing their home nation.


To understand that stat better of the 24 games, how many were friendlies (or Nations League games), how many dead rubbers where we had already qualified (or 3rd/4th place play-offs) when we weren’t necessarily playing a full strength team?
How many were draws?
Does penalties or extra time (as in the final) count as a draw or a win?
And for context how many top 10 sides have World Champions Argentina beaten in that period?

Your currect capello was serial winner but failed with England, that could be put down to the culture in that England dressing room at that time. Southgate has had 3 tournaments now which he has failed to beat a side who on par with us or better. We beat the sides we should beat but when we come up against someone who any good we lose. this England side has very talented players who are playing for sides who are challenging or consistently winning trophies at there clubs. Not like this England side full of average players. In my opinion Southgate has done ok job but do I think he going to win England silverware? No I don't. I will admit interms of replacements there isn't a great deal good English managers out there, which why I probably threw tuchel name into the hat.

 

[londonblue]

Your currect capello was serial winner but failed with England, that could be put down to the culture in that England dressing room at that time.

Doesn't the manager set the culture? You should read up on how Capello treated Ben Foster, which led to him (Foster) making himself unavailable for England again. (When Capello left he'd pretty much missed the boat.)

this England side has very talented players who are playing for sides who are challenging or consistently winning trophies at there clubs. Not like this England side full of average players. In my opinion Southgate has done ok job but do I think he going to win England silverware? No I don't. I will admit interms of replacements there isn't a great deal good English managers out there, which why I probably threw tuchel name into the hat.

So Southgate has managed to get to finals, semi finals and quarter finals with average players? I'd say that's a very good reason to keep him on.

 

[sufc4life21]

Doesn't the manager set the culture? You should read up on how Capello treated Ben Foster, which led to him (Foster) making himself unavailable for England again. (When Capello left he'd pretty much missed the boat.)


So Southgate has managed to get to finals, semi finals and quarter finals with average players? I'd say that's a very good reason to keep him on.

I never said England have average players, quite the opposite! But I'm right when I say we beat the sides we should beat but when we play anyone any good we lose. That was proven against france this world cup.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Your currect capello was serial winner but failed with England, that could be put down to the culture in that England dressing room at that time. Southgate has had 3 tournaments now which he has failed to beat a side who on par with us or better. We beat the sides we should beat but when we come up against someone who any good we lose. this England side has very talented players who are playing for sides who are challenging or consistently winning trophies at there clubs. Not like this England side full of average players. In my opinion Southgate has done ok job but do I think he going to win England silverware? No I don't. I will admit interms of replacements there isn't a great deal good English managers out there, which why I probably threw tuchel name into the hat.

That England probably aren’t going to lift a trophy is IMO more reflective of the players than the manager.

England’s players are overwhelmingly chosen from the Premiership. Yet in the last dozen years an Englishman has been player of the season in the Premiership just once (Vardy 2015-16). That’s as many times as footballing non-entities Wales and Egypt.

No English player has been in the top 3 in the FIFA best men’s player awards since they were started in 2016. We don’t just not have a Messi, a Ronaldo, a Neymar, a Mbappe; we also don’t have a Griezman, a Modric, a van Dijk or Lewandowski.

In the last dozen years just two English players have made the FIFPRO annual World XI (and even then once only) and one of those Rooney has been long since retired. Back in the late 00s and early 2010s the likes of Terry, Gerrard, Ferdinand and Lampard regularly made it.

England have only a couple of “winners” to use your phrase, players who have won a Champions League final. Reece James, who is terrific, was sadly injured, I think Chilwell was too. Yet “winners” Jordan Henderson and Mason Mount seemed to be Southgate’s most contentious selections when they were picked.

They have some talented attackers - but not more talented than France who knocked us out - and a pretty average keeper and defence. That Harry Maguire was able to make team of the tournament I’d suggest is more of a positive reflection of Southgate than of England’s riches as several Man U managers haven’t been able to get that form out of him.

For my money England under Southgate are roughly where we should be. We have a chance of winning but would need things to fall in our favour- for example if France had gone down with their virus that sent them to sleep for the first 70 minutes before our game rather than the final it might have been a different story. We weren’t outclassed tactically - I actually thought we negated Mbappe quite well for example.

 

[Supa Shrimpa]

The England team has already earnt respect ,they now need a manager to take them to the next step as they got many years ago back in the mid 60s, I dont believe Southgate is the person to do that,i also dont follow that it has to be an Englishman, .Many international sides are now managed by foriegners, Unless FIFA made it a rule the all countries national teams should be managed by a person from that country.

I'm not really interested in what other international sides do. I just feel it should be an englishman for ours. How awkward would it have been if we played a final against Sweden when Sven was manager, or against Italy when Capello was ? I guarantee supporters and the press would have complained of foul play if we had been beaten by the managers own nations.

What I would like to see, if Gareth bringing in a manager now to work alongside him during the euros campaign. Get him to know the players and the system and prepare him to succeed Gareth after the euro finals. Somebody that has played for England in the past that understands what it's like to compete at the highest level.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I'm not really interested in what other international sides do. I just feel it should be an englishman for ours. How awkward would it have been if we played a final against Sweden when Sven was manager, or against Italy when Capello was ? I guarantee supporters and the press would have complained of foul play if we had been beaten by the managers own nations.

What I would like to see, if Gareth bringing in a manager now to work alongside him during the euros campaign. Get him to know the players and the system and prepare him to succeed Gareth after the euro finals. Somebody that has played for England in the past that understands what it's like to compete at the highest level.

 

[southendkid]

I guarantee supporters and the press would have complained of foul play if we had been beaten by the managers own nations

Why? Was there uproar that Greece won Euro 2004 with a German manager?

 

[Supa Shrimpa]

Why? Was there uproar that Greece won Euro 2004 with a German manager?

I have no idea, i'm not greek. I'm not interesting in their thoughts of their national team

 

[cerbera45]

The England team has already earnt respect ,they now need a manager to take them to the next step as they got many years ago back in the mid 60s, I dont believe Southgate is the person to do that,i also dont follow that it has to be an Englishman, .Many international sides are now managed by foreigners, Unless FIFA made it a rule the all countries national teams should be managed by a person from that country.

it hasn't worked for England twice previously

 

[stewart]

it hasn't worked for England twice previously

And how many times has it worked with English managers ,Southgate has laid the foundations of what can be a very good English National team ,but i dont believe he can take them any further, What England need now is a manger with more flare ,willing to let the players express themselves more, if that be a foriegn manager so be it, How many times has it worked having an English manager ,ONCE and he went out on a limb allowed the players to express themselves ,gambled on a new system and totally changed the game of football forever.

 

[londonblue]

I never said England have average players, quite the opposite! But I'm right when I say we beat the sides we should beat but when we play anyone any good we lose. That was proven against france this world cup.

No you're not. Football doesn't work that way. More to the point, there was a time when we would lose or draw against "lesser" opponents (remember Iceland). Under Southgate those days are long gone.

So, once again, all you've done is give me reasons why Southgate should stay. Which is ironic really given that I was genuinely on the fence until I started reading this thread!

 

[WestStandBlue]

Think the majority of people pre tournament would of expected us to win the group but to get knocked out by France. I thought if he done that and played well, he would keep his job and that has happened. I would rather try something else now as also agree that we won’t win anything under him but struggle to give alternative viable candidates.

Let’s see how he starts in March. Italy away in Naples will be incredibly tough so we could start with a defeat but with two qualifying from each group we should still easily make Euro 2024 in Germany. So his got one last crack to win a tournament and generally improve on what really has been a poor year for england overall (especially looking back on that 4-0 defeat to Hungary)

 

[sufc4life21]

No you're not. Football doesn't work that way. More to the point, there was a time when we would lose or draw against "lesser" opponents (remember Iceland). Under Southgate those days are long gone.

So, once again, all you've done is give me reasons why Southgate should stay. Which is ironic really given that I was genuinely on the fence until I started reading this thread!

I stand by what I've previously said. We beat the sides we should beat but lose against decent opposition, 3 tournaments thats happened now where we come up short against decent side. England b side would beat the likes of Iran, Wales and senegal. Southgate been found wanting in big games where it matters. This England side is very talented side with players who are playing in the best league in the world and majority are consistently playing in Europe. Rice, saka, folden and bellingham are in today market are 100 mill plus players. Not like Southgate got bunch of average players at his disposal. I do believe a better tactical braver manager would do better than Southgate, you never know might lead us to glory.

 

[londonblue]

I stand by what I've previously said. We beat the sides we should beat but lose against decent opposition, 3 tournaments thats happened now where we come up short against decent side. England b side would beat the likes of Iran, Wales and senegal. Southgate been found wanting in big games where it matters. This England side is very talented side with players who are playing in the best league in the world and majority are consistently playing in Europe. Rice, saka, folden and bellingham are in today market are 100 mill plus players. Not like Southgate got bunch of average players at his disposal. I do believe a better tactical braver manager would do better than Southgate, you never know might lead us to glory.

Either way, thanks for helping me make my mind up, even if it was the opposite way to you!

Life is strange sometimes.

 

[sufc4life21]

Either way, thanks for helping me make my mind up, even if it was the opposite way to you!

Life is strange sometimes.

Just my opinion. I would happily eat humble pie if Southgate proves me wrong in 18 months time. What better place to do it on German soil to shut down his critics.