Duggan verdict

[Shrimpers are Magic]

Ah, the old vile vermin arguement, we live in enlightened times do we not.

You mean the times of free health care,education and social housing and yet still choose a life of crime.
Crying into my beer mate, crying into my beer.

 

[OldBlueLady]

I can't believe the criticism the police are getting here, Duggan was a nasty individual with a gang mentality and by all accounts, his family are not exactly angelic either. There is custodial history surrounding the whole lot of them and they are pretty much all well known to the authorities. The armed police would not have been in the area if intelligence hadn't provided them with the lead....they don't just casually walk around with their firearms. The police officer who shot him was not "trigger happy" but would have believed there was a threat, if you live by the sword, then expect to die by it.

 

[Pubey]

I can't believe the criticism the police are getting here, Duggan was a nasty individual with a gang mentality and by all accounts, his family are not exactly angelic either. There is custodial history surrounding the whole lot of them and they are pretty much all well known to the authorities. The armed police would not have been in the area if intelligence hadn't provided them with the lead....they don't just casually walk around with their firearms. The police officer who shot him was not "trigger happy" but would have believed there was a threat, if you live by the sword, then expect to die by it.

Glad to know that you think it's fine for police to shoot unarmed people just because he was 'nasty' and had a 'gang mentality' and his family weren't 'angelic'.

I'm sure the officer did see Duggan as a threat, that's fine, and it's why he was found to have lawfully killed Duggan. He saw the threat because he had intel that Duggan had just been involved with buying/getting a gun. However he didn't have a gun on him, and so he didn't actually pose a threat to anyone in that split second when he pulled the trigger (twice).

A lot of stuff doesn't add up with the shooting of Duggan (what he did, where the guy was, the angle that Duggan was shot at etc). That's all valid criticism of the police in this case, because in the end an unarmed person was shot dead, and that's unacceptable (even if it was lawful) no matter who that is. The police should be praised because they do these ops day in day out (I think the officer said he'd done over 50 and never had a bullet been fired) and 99% of the time they're done really well.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

There's much in this case that we don't know and I'm not going to second judge a jury who heard all the evidence.

What however particularly troubles me is the vast difference between some of the media reports and what has been established and accepted by all parties as fact at the inquest.

 

[davewebbsbrain]

Glad to know that you think it's fine for police to shoot unarmed people just because he was 'nasty' and had a 'gang mentality' and his family weren't 'angelic'.

I'm sure the officer did see Duggan as a threat, that's fine, and it's why he was found to have lawfully killed Duggan. He saw the threat because he had intel that Duggan had just been involved with buying/getting a gun. However he didn't have a gun on him, and so he didn't actually pose a threat to anyone in that split second when he pulled the trigger (twice).

A lot of stuff doesn't add up with the shooting of Duggan (what he did, where the guy was, the angle that Duggan was shot at etc). That's all valid criticism of the police in this case, because in the end an unarmed person was shot dead, and that's unacceptable (even if it was lawful) no matter who that is. The police should be praised because they do these ops day in day out (I think the officer said he'd done over 50 and never had a bullet been fired) and 99% of the time they're done really well.

He could have had another gun and could have been a threat at some stage. He is no innocent victim here, he is a criminal who purchased a gun to commit crime. If he had committed a crime and shot one of your loved ones dead, you'd be first in the queue to ask why the police didn't stop him from committing crimes.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

I have not noticed any comment on the inquest of David Rathbone, "killed" by a gunman; the 2 WPCs in Manchester, and a quite extensive list of bobbies shot while on duty. I believe an armed Sgt in Clacton (Bill Bishop?)was murdered many years ago when he challenged a gunman and didn't shoot fast enough. The whole Duggan incident must have been at an immense speed and stress. As for the witness seeing a blackberry from 109 yards away I would expect he made his statement some time after the incident when the blackberry had been identified; would he have been so confident from closer and in a possible line of fire? The killing was not good for anyone. I hope all concerned can find some peace.

 

[steveo]

The day that an armed Policeman in the UK can execute an unarmed man in the street (American style) and legally get away with it, is a bad day for democracy.

How about Police 1-Democracy 0?

Execute? Are you saying the gun had nothing to do with Duggan? That should require a yes or no answer.

If yes, what was he doing with a gun?

I'd like to see you in the position of the old bill. What would you do? Ask him for the serial number so you could check it was legit?

How about Zone 100 - Barna 0 - as usual.

 

[steveo]

He was 150 yards away - his evidence was unreliable.

sorry just done a quick conversion - looking on from a window in a flat over 100m away - should have said 109 yards!
still unreliable

So you cant spot a Blackberry from 109 yards? I bet Barna could.

 

[Lord Football]

Police shoot and kill unarmed man.

If thats the style of Law Enforcement you want, who am I to tell you you're wrong.....

 

[steveo]

Police shoot and kill unarmed man.

If thats the style of Law Enforcement you want, who am I to tell you you're wrong.....

Could you try and put yourself in the position of one of the police officers?

 

[Pubey]

Could you try and put yourself in the position of one of the police officers?

10 out of the 11 didn't fire a shot...

 

[OldBlueLady]

10 out of the 11 didn't fire a shot...

I know a former top ranking SO19 officer who was involved in the search for Raoul Moat (spelling may be wrong there, can't be bothered to check but you know who I mean), he'd tell you how difficult it can be. You have a split second to make a decision, it'd be nice to know that you were backed up on that decision when it's what you've been trained to do.

 

[steveo]

10 out of the 11 didn't fire a shot...

They obviously didn't need to if he first bloke got the job done. Imagine the uproar f they had shot him twice.

 

[Berrichonne shrimper]

You live by the sword you die by the sword,he did and he has,no problem as far as i can see.

 

[Napster]

You live by the sword you die by the sword,he did and he has,no problem as far as i can see.

he had a sword as well? for ****s sake

 

[chapperzUK]

he had a sword as well? for ****s sake

and an apache helicopter ...

 

[steveo]

and an apache helicopter ...

and a blackberry - an almost unbeatable combination. The Copper must have had a lucky shot.

 

[united we stand]

To be fair if I got out of a taxi and was shot because a police officer saw a gun that I wasnt holding I wouldnt feel overly safe.

This is more down to a policemans judgement. Ignoring conspiracy theories and going on the basis that he did have a gun but threw it at some point the policeman in my opinion must have shot without really taking due care.

Its not the first incident where an unarmed man was shot, remember the Brazilian guy after 7/7?

Certainly if the police thought Duggan had just bought a gun or had it with him its understandable they were jittery, but it does sound like a bit of trigger happiness to me.

I have no sympathy with him as I said before, but does make you a little nervous that if the police had some bad information they could make other mistakes.

I was once followed by a police helicopter (I could see it hovering above me through my sunroof) and when I stopped 15 minutes later to drop a mate off a police car came screaming up (lights off) and stopped next to me, had a look then drove off. Can imagine what might have happened if they had been told I was an armed robber and they were armed. Just takes one mistake, they are only human after all.

Channel 4 did an excellent program a few years ago where , to cut a long story short they set up a fake stabbing in a pub where they had taken a studio audience to lunch , with lots of cameras in the pub. In summary an awful lot of people gave statements to the (real) police stating what they had seen which was totally inaccurate , but they were 100% sure in their own minds. Psychologists explained that the brain simply fills in the gaps , some of us realize this and some of us don't, although we can be 100% sure what we saw something (in some cases the eye witnesses location made it impossible for them to have seen what they were 'sure' they had seen

Many of the eye witnesses described the weapon in great detail , they all described different types of knives. HOWEVER there was no knife. The psychologist explained that because the rumors spread that the guy had been 'stabbed' the brain filed in the gaps and saw knife. Following the same logic a phone could easily be mistaken for a gun

 

[GBJ]

You live by the sword you die by the sword,he did and he has,no problem as far as i can see.

This. All day, every day.

If anything this should be seen as a deterrent or at least a clear warning/threat to those who want to indulge in the criminal lifestyle. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

 

[MK Shrimper]

This. All day, every day.

If anything this should be seen as a deterrent or at least a clear warning/threat to those who want to indulge in the criminal lifestyle. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

All very well, but what if that means more scumbags arming themselves? What if more policemen and innocent bystanders are killed in the process?