Death penalty - for or against

[Sussex Shrimper]

Against, for two reasons.

Firstly, there will always be miscarriages of justice. Don't give me that nonsense about being sure first - isn't our justice system supposed to do that before sending somebody to prison?

Secondly, the state has no business committing an act of murder. Somebody held in custody for the remainder of their life no longer poses a threat to society. Bloodlust only reduces us to their level.

 

[osymandus]

On the flip side if the Roy Whiting who killed sarah Payne had be killed after being convited of a sex crime then Sarah Payne is still alive today.

Or a way of removing his desires or secluding him else would also have done the same thing.

Just becuase we dont accept goverment sanctioned exections (lets be fair if they want to do it its what MIx and special forces are for really and those guys used to beable to make it look like good accidents), dosnt mean there are not ways and means of removing in a humaine way the threats posed by ceratin memebers of society

 

[Firestorm]

I hear what you're saying, but any of these in my opinion would have made the world a better place if they had been put to death (I know some of them were, but not time to go through and check them all!) - these are all convicted serial killers in the UK, no shadow of a doubt:

Beverley Allitt - aka Angel of Death; paediatric nurse who killed four babies in her care and injured at least nine others, convicted in 1991
Levi Bellfield - aka The Bus Stalker Killer, murdered two female students, attempted to kill a third, and is suspected of up to 20 more attacks and murders. Is the prime suspect in the murder of schoolgirl Milly Dowler
Robert Black - Scottish schoolgirl killer; convicted of three murders, suspected of many more
Ian Brady and Myra Hindley - aka Moors Murderers - murdered five children, aged between 10 and 17 years old, and buried them on Saddleworth Moor.
Leslie Bailey - killed at least three young boys in and around London in the 1980s
William Burke and William Hare - notorious body snatchers in Edinburgh in the 19th century.
George Chapman - poisoned three women, suspected by some authors of being Jack the Ripper
John Childs - murdered six individuals; jailed 1980
Robert George Clements - doctor who murdered one wife but committed suicide before being arrested; three previous wives died in suspicious circumstances
John Christie - aka The Necrophile[citation needed] who killed seven women (including his wife) and disputably one infant between 1943 and 1953 and hid them in his house and garden at 10 Rillington Place
Mary Ann Cotton - British Victorian killer, said to have taken more than 20 victims
Thomas Neill Cream - aka Lambeth Poisoner, began his killing spree in the United States then moved to London. Hanged 1892
Amelia Dyer - murdered infants in her care; executed in 1896
Kenneth Erskine - aka Stockwell Strangler; jailed in 1988 for murdering seven pensioners
Steven Grieveson - aka The Sunderland Strangler, murdered three teenage boys in Sunderland, Tyne & Wear in 1993 and 1994
John George Haigh - aka the Acid Bath Murderer and the Vampire of London. Active in England during the 1940s. Was convicted of six murders, but claimed to have killed 9. Executed in 1949
Anthony Hardy - aka the Camden Ripper; convicted of three murders; suspected of at least four
Trevor Hardy - aka The Beast in the Night; killed three teenage girls in Manchester from 1974 to 1976
Colin Ireland - aka Gay Slayer; killed five victims in the early 1990s
Michael Lupo - aka Wolf Man; convicted of four murders and the attempted murder of two others
Patrick Mackay - confessed to killing 11 people
Peter Manuel - Scottish murderer of seven, suspected of killing 15; executed in 1958
Robert Maudsley - killer of four; killed three in prison
Peter Moore - businessman who killed men at random in Wales
Donald Neilson - aka Black Panther; killed four people including heiress Lesley Whittle
Dennis Nilsen - killer of 15 (possibly 16) men between 1978 and 1983
Colin Norris - nurse convicted of killing four patients in Leeds hospitals[1]
William Palmer - aka The Rugeley Poisoner
Mark Rowntree - 19 year old who killed four people at random
Amelia Sach and Annie Walters - murdered an unknown number of babies put up for adoption
Harold Shipman - doctor convicted of 15 murders; a later inquiry stated he had killed at least 215 and possibly up to 457 people over a 25 year period
George Joseph Smith - aka The Brides in the Bath killer
John Straffen - child-killer and Britain's longest serving prisoner until his death on 19th November 2007
Peter Sutcliffe - aka the Yorkshire Ripper; convicted in 1981 of the murders of 13 women and the attacks on seven more from 1975 to 1980
Fred West and Rosemary West - aka House of Horrors murderers in Gloucester. She was convicted of 10 murders and are both believed to have tortured and murdered at least 12 young women between 1967 and 1987, many at the couple's home in Gloucester, England. He committed suicide in 1995 while awaiting trial
Steve Wright - aka The Suffolk Strangler; killed 5 women in six weeks around Ipswich in late 2006
Graham Frederick Young - aka The Teacup Poisoner; killed three individuals from 1962 to 1971

Interesting List 12 of the 37 committed their first crime whilst the death penalty was in force

The US list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_by_country#United_States_Of_America is even larger , which for a country with the death penalty is not a particularly good advert for its deterrant effect

 

[Vange Shrimper]

Think James Whale once said that Paedo's should have their balls and everything else removed to cut out their desires of doing things to children. Dont know if that would work!

 

[OldBlueLady]

Against, for two reasons.

Firstly, there will always be miscarriages of justice. Don't give me that nonsense about being sure first - isn't our justice system supposed to do that before sending somebody to prison?

Secondly, the state has no business committing an act of murder. Somebody held in custody for the remainder of their life no longer poses a threat to society. Bloodlust only reduces us to their level.

And then costs us money, and makes guards have to protect them against the wrath of other prisoners because child killers especially are never accepted.

Did you ever see the pictures of the inside of Ian Huntley's "cell"? Life of flippin' luxury albeit isolated all paid for by the tax payer.

 

[MK Shrimper]

And then costs us money, and makes guards have to protect them against the wrath of other prisoners because child killers especially are never accepted.

Did you ever see the pictures of the inside of Ian Huntley's "cell"? Life of flippin' luxury albeit isolated all paid for by the tax payer.

Don't believe anything you read in the "popular" press.

 

[steveo]

Secondly, the state has no business committing an act of murder.

The state would be upholding the law, not committing murder.

 

[Gremlin]

The state would be upholding the law, not committing murder.

Even if the wrong guy gets hung? Think about it.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Don't believe anything you read in the "popular" press.

Are you counting the Telegraph in that? Admit there's no pictures here, but you get the gist

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...an-Huntley-recieving-'special-treatment'.html

 

[steveo]

Even if the wrong guy gets hung? Think about it.

yes, even if that happens. As a previous poster stated if our system finds someone guilty then we have to go with it. Obviously the death penalty is the most extreme punishment, but where would you draw the line on re trials and "what if we get it wrong". I got a speeding ban a little while ago. What if the equipment that caught me wasnt working properly? What if the copper wasnt concentrating properly? Would you have fought on my behalf then, just in case it was wrong?

 

[DTS]

Or a way of removing his desires or secluding him else would also have done the same thing.

Just becuase we dont accept goverment sanctioned exections (lets be fair if they want to do it its what MIx and special forces are for really and those guys used to beable to make it look like good accidents), dosnt mean there are not ways and means of removing in a humaine way the threats posed by ceratin memebers of society

At what cost to the tax payer....???

What if he escapes and does it again....??

 

[Sussex Shrimper]

The state would be upholding the law, not committing murder.

Upholding the law by committing murder. You could legalise rape as a punishment for rapists and it'd still be rape - i.e. not the kind of thing that a civilised society should be indulging in. If you lower yourself to the level of the criminal, then from what moral highground do you act?

 

[MK Shrimper]

Are you counting the Telegraph in that? Admit there's no pictures here, but you get the gist

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...an-Huntley-recieving-'special-treatment'.html

Yes I am. The press in this country (Graniud included!) aren't worth any more than toilet paper.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Upholding the law by committing murder. You could legalise rape as a punishment for rapists and it'd still be rape - i.e. not the kind of thing that a civilised society should be indulging in. If you lower yourself to the level of the criminal, then from what moral highground do you act?

Sorry, I don't get that, if the law of your land is that in certain cases the death penalty is to be imposed then that's that, it's not "murder" but carrying out a sentence.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

The state would be upholding the law, not committing murder.

What gives the state the right to decide if someone deserves to live or die?

You have far more faith in the state than I do. I don't fully trust the state in such basic tasks as collecting my rubbish, storing my identity details etc. There's no way I want the state deciding should I live or die.

 

[steveo]

If you lower yourself to the level of the criminal, then from what moral highground do you act?

Presumably from the moral high ground from where you lock people in a cage, which seems ok with you.

 

[Sussex Shrimper]

And then costs us money, and makes guards have to protect them against the wrath of other prisoners because child killers especially are never accepted.

If it's that or state sponsored murder, then I'll take it.

Did you ever see the pictures of the inside of Ian Huntley's "cell"? Life of flippin' luxury albeit isolated all paid for by the tax payer.

Then isn't your quarrel with the luxuries afforded to prisoners? I don't see how this stands up as an argument for executions.

 

[Gremlin]

yes, even if that happens. As a previous poster stated if our system finds someone guilty then we have to go with it. Obviously the death penalty is the most extreme punishment, but where would you draw the line on re trials and "what if we get it wrong". I got a speeding ban a little while ago. What if the equipment that caught me wasnt working properly? What if the copper wasnt concentrating properly? Would you have fought on my behalf then, just in case it was wrong?

A slightly strange question since you wouldn't need anyone to fight on your behalf, what with you still being alive and all that.

 

[Sussex Shrimper]

Sorry, I don't get that, if the law of your land is that in certain cases the death penalty is to be imposed then that's that, it's not "murder" but carrying out a sentence.

...which is why I use the somewhat extreme example of rape as a punishment. Are the kind of punishments meted out in countries such as Saudi Arabia just because they are permitted by law, or do they paint a picture of barbarity?

 

[OldBlueLady]

If it's that or state sponsored murder, then I'll take it.

Then isn't your quarrel with the luxuries afforded to prisoners? I don't see how this stands up as an argument for executions.

It's the whole thing, convicted serial killers (that's where I'm basing this argument) are being housed, clothed and fed all at our expense whereas if the death penalty was in place then they wouldn't be costing us a penny. I dread to think how much it's cost to keep Ian Brady in "prison" over the years.