Coronavirus (Non-Politics)

[blueblueblue]

FWIW ,I heard of a 96 year old woman in a UK carehome who passed away last Monday.She'd had her first jab about a week or so earlier and had Covid at the time of her death,which as @Rigbsy will tell you goes down on her death certificate as cause of death.Be warned.

That's really sad. It's also very sad that the jab didn't have enough time to help her.

 

[Tinks]

FWIW ,I heard of a 96 year old woman in a UK carehome who passed away last Monday.She'd had her first jab about a week or so earlier and had Covid at the time of her death,which as @Rigbsy will tell you goes down on her death certificate as cause of death.Be warned.

Sadly, I heard last week that one of the local care homes where all the residents and the majority of the staff had received their vaccine have now developed COVID.

 

[blueblueblue]

Sadly, I heard last week that one of the local care homes where all the residents and the majority of the staff had received their vaccine have now developed COVID.

Thats a bit worrying Tinks. How long after the jab, do you know exactly?

 

[Tinks]

Thats a bit worrying Tinks. How long after the jab, do you know exactly?

Was two weeks yesterday from receiving the vaccination.
I suspect someone may have already contracted COVID prior to having the vaccination but, were asymptomatic.

On another note we have today had another successful day in vaccination hub.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

Surely sadly, simply but if vaccines are in region of 65 to 95 % working that does give a minority who won't gain immunity.
And I believe I read that the vac also don't work when the patient already has contracted covid?

Keep up the superb work Tinks and teams.

On my estate the NHW are doing collections of items for the SUH, both patients and staff, and that is being well recieved by workers there that I have had positive feedback from.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

I thought the understanding was you are still very much at risk, until you have the 2nd jab?

 

[Tinks]

I thought the understanding was you are still very much at risk, until you have the 2nd jab?

After approx 14 days you do start to produce antibodies however, in order for the vaccine to be at its most effective you do require the 2nd jab which at the moment we are giving people dates of between 10-12 weeks to return to receive.

Doing some of these clinics it has been mostly older people whom I have to say are so grateful to be receiving it but, I constantly have to remind them the vaccine does not give them immunity only some protection which some have had difficulty in understanding

 

[Ricey]

I'll let it go when the mods start treating us like adults and stop deleting posts relevent to the topic. Either that or be consistant and delete all posts that mention the unmentionable rather than the selected few.

We treated everyone like adults when we had a politics forum and look how that turned out.

As Spiff says we have lives outside of the Zone, we do this for free and for our love of the site. We took a decision to ban politics due to certain individuals turning everything into a slanging match. We do try our best to get rid of as much as possible. It’s not about someone saying Boris, it’s about the context. If we feel the context is going to break out into a political debate where people are going to fight and push their individual agendas we will delete the post. Just because someone says the word Boris or Politics doesn’t mean we will delete the post.

We have plenty of discussions over posts and whether to keep them or not. We want the Zone to stay as fluid as possible whilst keeping to our rules with regards to politics.

Covid through a real curveball at us and we have allowed certain discussions to continue as this is something that has affects on all our lives. But once again we take each post on a case by case and try to avoid any political agenda pushing where possible.

I hope this answers your question, if you have any further queries in reference to this please feel free to PM me or one of the other mods. We try our best unfortunately that isn’t always going to please everyone.

 

[Special Blue]

I understand with this topic it's very hard not to stray into politics and the mods job is difficult.
I just want to thank the owners/mods and good people of SZ of helping us all getting through theses difficult times.
It is really appreciated and I'm sure helps us all! otherwise why log in?
I've just set up Cricko with an appeal that shouldn't be needed.
This site keeps me somewhat sane!
Thanks guys.

 

[rigsby]

Sadly, I heard last week that one of the local care homes where all the residents and the majority of the staff had received their vaccine have now developed COVID.

Is that the one in Benfleet, Name begins with a G.

According to figures in the last 2 weeks in the southend area 72 people have died of covid in care homes. How many left their care homes but died in hospital is not available.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Sad stuff, not just the death but the illnesses leading to it, and the mental anguish that reads as such a big factor in the whole sad tale.
Is her uncaring father still living to know the disaster that trailed in his wake?

I honestly have no idea, I'd have been mid teens when it happened and was unaware that they didn't see him. You just assume things at that age. My aunt re-married on the bounce, a terrible mistake - as that was also deeply troubled.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Is that the one in Benfleet, Name begins with a G.

According to figures in the last 2 weeks in the southend area 72 people have died of covid in care homes. How many left their care homes but died in hospital is not available.

Not sure which one you mean, but the one next door to us at work had 7 ambulances in and out on Friday.

 

[Ricey]

On my way to work yesterday the amount of cars on the road was unbelievable.

 

[Mad Cyril]

I am pretty sure a couple of shops on Southend high street have attempted a covert opening...

 

[Member]

Sadly, I heard last week that one of the local care homes where all the residents and the majority of the staff had received their vaccine have now developed COVID.

Yes we've had a similar situation with my Grandma and the end-of-life/respite care home she's currently in. Not sure if we're talking about the same care home.

We know that the vaccines provide pretty good efficacy, but that is against symptomatic COVID-19. We don't have a great deal of information about if the vaccine offers actual protection against infection, and therefore if it avoids or reduces onwards transmission of the virus.

Care homes continue to be a key vector for transmission, for lots of obvious reasons. We also know that people 'incubate' the virus for up to several days before showing symptoms, and that if people are vaccinated then there could be a week or two when they are asymptomatic and shedding the virus. So it's really important that even if people are vaccinated that they behave (and are cared for) as if they could still catch/pass on the virus.

If someone in a carehome was to present as symptomatic with COVID and trigger all residents and carers to require a test, then it's not a great surprise that you'll find that the virus has been transmitted around and several other people also show up as positive. There's a working theory that people who are vaccinated could still show virus in their nasal passage which has been breathed in and are incubating in there, but it hasn't resulted in systemic infection within the respiratory tract. Which is why you might find some positive tests.

Also remember only a small fraction of patients (about 500k out of 9m who've had at least their first) have had their full vaccination regimen (2 doses), and even then you'll need a week or two beyond then for the full effect to emerge.

I think it's really important to be clear - there is absolutely no evidence, and no biological plausibility, that having the vaccine can directly cause you to get COVID-19. All the robust evidence points to these vaccines having good effectiveness. It goes to show that vaccines aren't going to solve everything, they're one piece of the puzzle.

 

[rigsby]

Yes we've had a similar situation with my Grandma and the end-of-life/respite care home she's currently in. Not sure if we're talking about the same care home.

We know that the vaccines provide pretty good efficacy, but that is against symptomatic COVID-19. We don't have a great deal of information about if the vaccine offers actual protection against infection, and therefore if it avoids reduces onwards transmission of the virus.

Care homes continue to be a key vector for transmission, for lots of obvious reasons. We also know that people 'incubate' the virus for up to several days before showing symptoms, and that if people are vaccinated then there could be a week or two when they are asymptomatic and shedding the virus. So it's really important that even if people are vaccinated that they behave (and are cared for) as if they could still catch/pass on the virus.

If someone in a carehome was to present as symptomatic with COVID and trigger all residents and carers to require a test, then it's not a great surprise that you'll find that the virus has been transmitted around and several other people also show up as positive. There's a working theory that people who are vaccinated could still show virus in their nasal passage which has been breathed in and are incubating in there, but it hasn't resulted in systemic infection within the respiratory tract. Which is why you might find some positive tests.

Also remember only a small fraction of patients (about 500k out of 9m who've had at least their first) have had their full vaccination regimen (2 doses), and even then you'll need a week or two beyond then for the full effect to emerge.

I think it's really important to be clear - there is absolutely no evidence, and no biological plausibility, that having the vaccine can directly cause you to get COVID-19. All the robust evidence points to these vaccines having good effectiveness. It goes to show that vaccines aren't going to solve everything, they're one piece of the puzzle.

There cant possibly be any robust evidence yet. Tests weren't carried out on frail 94 year olds. The people dying in care homes are the guinea pigs.

So heres a question do we all get the same amount of vaccine. Does that have an effect on different people?

 

[Member]

There cant possibly be any robust evidence yet. Tests weren't carried out on frail 94 year olds. The people dying in care homes are the guinea pigs.

So heres a question do we all get the same amount of vaccine. Does that have an effect on different people?

The AZ study design is a bit of a mess but it did include elderly patients. Just not as many as ideal given they prioritised getting the trial completed as quickly as possible. Hundreds of over 70s received the AZ vaccine in their study programme.

The oldest person to receive the Pfizer vaccine in their trial was 89. Over 40% of patients were over 55. There is no signal of differential efficacy by age.

So we do have a good degree of confidence in the vaccines in older people even as it, in general, has to work with a weaker immune system which is associated with older age.

Yes the vaccine dose is the same, there is no need for it to be scaled by size or weight, it's not how it works.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

To whom it may concern.

I did not imply in post 4,998 that I thought the vaccine was ineffective for elderly people in care homes.

Nor did I imply that taking the vacccine was a cause of elderly people dying of covid in care homes.

Just thought I'd clear that up.

 

[rigsby]

The AZ study design is a bit of a mess but it did include elderly patients. Just not as many as ideal given they prioritised getting the trial completed as quickly as possible. Hundreds of over 70s received the AZ vaccine in their study programme.

The oldest person to receive the Pfizer vaccine in their trial was 89. Over 40% of patients were over 55. There is no signal of differential efficacy by age.

So we do have a good degree of confidence in the vaccines in older people even as it, in general, has to work with a weaker immune system which is associated with older age.

Yes the vaccine dose is the same, there is no need for it to be scaled by size or weight, it's not how it works.

So how many frail 94 year olds were tested then. Ones that need full time care and are stuck in a bed. The sort that one glass of wine knocks them out.

My friends dad went hospital with 'stroke like symptoms' but actually recovered within a few days. So not a stroke. He died a few days later because a trip to hospital for someone that age is a death sentence in 2021.

One more thing according to a local funeral directors they are claiming they are dealing with far higher percentage of men.

Im sure some on here might have some info on that from their various lines of work.

 

[Member]

So how many frail 94 year olds were tested then. Ones that need full time care and are stuck in a bed. The sort that one glass of wine knocks them out.

My friends dad went hospital with 'stroke like symptoms' but actually recovered within a few days. So not a stroke. He died a few days later because a trip to hospital for someone that age is a death sentence in 2021.

One more thing according to a local funeral directors they are claiming they are dealing with far higher percentage of men.

Im sure some on here might have some info on that from their various lines of work.

There wasn't an age limit on participants in any of the trials I've looked at (the main ones). But the general difficulties in recruiting elderly people to trials mean the oldest people in the studies are high 80s. The regulators will have looked closely to see if the benefits and risks could be interpolated to the very oldest people, especially given their general frailty and multimorbidity. They haven't seen any issues in using the vaccines in people in their 90s. Don't forget that the consequences of COVID-19 is many times more serious for the very elderly, so vaccination is even more important and regulators would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to deny it based on the evidence we have.

Being male does seem to be an additional risk factor. It's not really understood why, but that's the case with lots of diseases. It could be causal (e.g. being male itself is an additional risk for mortality) or an association that's explained by other things (e.g. worse general health/lower life expectancy in males, living alone/delayed access to health services etc)