Brown about Gavin Ward, that is....

[Ricky Otto]

If clubs rely on cup wins why did Phil make several changes on Tuesday?,He sends out a virtual reserve team and moans when they lose.

That would be a better point to make. A keeper doesn't need resting and playing Smith certainly weakens the side.

 

[EastStandBlue]

That would be a better point to make. A keeper doesn't need resting and playing Smith certainly weakens the side.

It's about keeping both goalkeepers as sharp as possible. Obviously Bentley's going to play in the vast majority of league fixtures, but if he breaks a finger or dislocates a shoulder then we're going to be in far better shape if Smith has been playing league fixtures as well as the odd game for the stiffs.

This is beginning to sound like a broken record, but the abuse Smith gets is ****ing ludicrous. If Smith had been cast aside in the summer and we'd brought in another 'keeper to play second fiddle to Bentley then there wouldn't be anywhere near the level of reaction to Smith's performance on Tuesday night which, by all accounts, wasn't half bad. There are some sections of our support base that really ought to be ashamed of themselves.

 

[mrsblue]

It's about keeping both goalkeepers as sharp as possible. Obviously Bentley's going to play in the vast majority of league fixtures, but if he breaks a finger or dislocates a shoulder then we're going to be in far better shape if Smith has been playing league fixtures as well as the odd game for the stiffs.

This is beginning to sound like a broken record, but the abuse Smith gets is ****ing ludicrous. If Smith had been cast aside in the summer and we'd brought in another 'keeper to play second fiddle to Bentley then there wouldn't be anywhere near the level of reaction to Smith's performance on Tuesday night which, by all accounts, wasn't half bad. There are some sections of our support base that really ought to be ashamed of themselves.

Well said!

Smiffy in my mind is a decent league 2 keeper whose confidence has been shredded by some fans in a disgusting manner!

 

[RHB]

Do referees get assessed by either the clubs they are officiating at, or by whoever appoints the ref for a match? If they do then surely the route to improving the consistency/quality of a ref is via that system. If players have enough dodgy games they get dropped, should be the same with refs. How does it work you qualified refs on here?

 

[Ricky Otto]

It's about keeping both goalkeepers as sharp as possible. Obviously Bentley's going to play in the vast majority of league fixtures, but if he breaks a finger or dislocates a shoulder then we're going to be in far better shape if Smith has been playing league fixtures as well as the odd game for the stiffs.

This is beginning to sound like a broken record, but the abuse Smith gets is ****ing ludicrous. If Smith had been cast aside in the summer and we'd brought in another 'keeper to play second fiddle to Bentley then there wouldn't be anywhere near the level of reaction to Smith's performance on Tuesday night which, by all accounts, wasn't half bad. There are some sections of our support base that really ought to be ashamed of themselves.

No matter who the no2 keeper is, playing him is going to weaken the side, he is no2 for a reason. If revenue from the cup is so important, why take that risk?

As for Smith, I think it would have been better for him and us if he'd have gone. Like you say, certain section of the support are just waiting for him to make mistakes and he's not handling that pressure well. Loan cover if Bentley gets injured is a better option IMO, we've had some very good keepers on loan like Belford and Daniels. 2 senior keepers on the wage bill doesn't really make sense to me.

 

[londonblue]

Do referees get assessed by either the clubs they are officiating at, or by whoever appoints the ref for a match? If they do then surely the route to improving the consistency/quality of a ref is via that system. If players have enough dodgy games they get dropped, should be the same with refs. How does it work you qualified refs on here?

I believe both clubs score the officials after the match, and that is added to the assessor's score.

However, I don't see how that will improve standards a) since I believe it already happens, and b) because, if it isn't already happening, all it will lead to is a score. The referee can only be replaced if there are better referees coming through. Standards will only improve if we encourage more people to take up refereeing. That won't happen if all they ever get is grief.

 

[Blues 'n twos]

Mr Ward did indeed have a shocker IMO, waving needless cards around like a Magician on speed, but he was given no help at all by the Lino on the east side, shocking fitness, shocking eyesight and missed everything of importance..including his bus home no doubt !!

 

[Gremlin]

"The referee tells me, through the fourth official, that he didn't have full control of the ball, so it wasn't a goalscoring opportunity. He then told the players that he wasn't the last man. As far as I'm concerned, if he has one story to tell, tell the one story"

So it seems Mr. Ward believed he had two reasons to reach the decision that he did, rather than one. Leaving aside whether or not we think he was right, I'd say this seems pretty straightforward. What does Phil not understand about it?

 

[Murkey_Mouse]

Well a penalty & sending off for fouling Barnard inside the box a minute to half time is the starter!!

 

[russellrh]

The ref on Tuesday was so out of his depth, we've had him a few times, and non have been good, giving Will Atinson a yellow for 50/50 ball wrong. Barnard was in front of the back line when he was brought down and just inside the box, player should have been sent off, and penalty given. Prosser booked for a straight forward tackle, but the Walsall player rolled around as though he had been hit with an upper cut, its cheating, Prosser gets booked for nothing, the cheat gets away, all right under the nose of the linesman Joke, I can understand PB getting angry these officials could not ref a game over the park.

 

[Joolz]

I have no problem with 'constructive' criticism of refs from managers, as long as managers are also prepeared to criticise their own players. Why berate a ref for one poor decision when your CF may have missed 3 open goals.

 

[Lord Football]

Do referees get assessed by either the clubs they are officiating at, or by whoever appoints the ref for a match? If they do then surely the route to improving the consistency/quality of a ref is via that system. If players have enough dodgy games they get dropped, should be the same with refs. How does it work you qualified refs on here?

At Conference level and above there is an assessor at every game. Referees are also marked by the clubs, my experience of that at lower level is that the marks are not work the paper they're written on.... but the FA disagree. So you get someone who knows little of the Law marking someone who is qualifed to apply that Law on how they apply it!!!

What an assessor wont do (and I am one) is tell a referee that he made the wrong decision. He will tell him he made an error in Law though. So, if Mr Ward tells the assessor that "in his opinion" there was a covering defender, then he has applied the Law correctly.

 

[mrsblue]

Refs only give what THEY see !


Any footballer misplacing a pass or missing a sitter will not do it on purpose likewise refs.

Sunday football has refs quitting because of abuse so in my mind professional managers/players should keep their thoughts to theirselves .

 

[RHB]

At Conference level and above there is an assessor at every game. Referees are also marked by the clubs, my experience of that at lower level is that the marks are not work the paper they're written on.... but the FA disagree. So you get someone who knows little of the Law marking someone who is qualifed to apply that Law on how they apply it!!!

What an assessor wont do (and I am one) is tell a referee that he made the wrong decision. He will tell him he made an error in Law though. So, if Mr Ward tells the assessor that "in his opinion" there was a covering defender, then he has applied the Law correctly.

OK thanks. So does the system work or does it need an overhaul at league level to remove the worst refs?

 

[Ricky Otto]

Refs only give what THEY see !


Any footballer misplacing a pass or missing a sitter will not do it on purpose likewise refs.

Sunday football has refs quitting because of abuse so in my mind professional managers/players should keep their thoughts to theirselves .

A lot of sunday league refs are awful though and considering the players pay their fees through their subs they should really have the decency to learn the rules. I'm not one to scream and shout at refs so when a ref last season gave a free kick outside the area for a ball kicked into my arm from point blank range, I protested calmly without a raised voice and asked "c'mon ref how was I going to get out the way of that? it was no way delibrate" to which he replied "I know, that is why I didn't book you" RIDICULOUS!

 

[Fish]

I go through a similar marking and assessment system as a hockey umpire, at roughly the same level as SOuthend play in football. There's no formal marking system for clubs I umpire, but the team sheets submitted to the league can be added to with feedback about umpiring. We also have a regular cycle of coachings and assessments so that we're watched, on average, twice in every 5 games or so.

It's an important point that's made to say that it's rare a coach / assessor would say "you got that decision wrong", other than where the rules are incorrectly applied (we might say it to each other during the de-brief, but that's different). That's massively rare even in what is an amateur sport. However there will be occasions where we didn't see something, or we saw it differently because of the angle we saw it at. So in those cases, we'll have a discussion about technique / positioning.

So there are two reasons why I might still stand up and give a ref an earful from the stands. One is when I know he made a crap decision because he was out of position and just saw it wrong. Not so much because of the crap decision (sometimes you just can't help seeing it differently from the angle you're looking) but if I'm fairly sure he would have seen it differently from where he should have been, that's where he's let us down.

IMHO, last man red card situations must be so hard to be sure of (and tyuo have to be sure - the sanction is extreme) because play is going away from you, which makes it harder to be sure of relative positions to be clear that the fouled player was indeed the last man, what control he has over it, and whether other covering player could have got involved.

The other is when a ref allows players to take the **** out of him. Things like persistent dissent, kicking the ball away, standing over the ball at a free kick to stop the opposition taking it quickly. That annoys me because it's weak and it's encouraging the players of today and tomorrow that it's OK to give officials a hard time.

 

[RHB]

A lot of sunday league refs are awful though and considering the players pay their fees through their subs they should really have the decency to learn the rules. I'm not one to scream and shout at refs so when a ref last season gave a free kick outside the area for a ball kicked into my arm from point blank range, I protested calmly without a raised voice and asked "c'mon ref how was I going to get out the way of that? it was no way delibrate" to which he replied "I know, that is why I didn't book you" RIDICULOUS!

I know my playing days are a long time since, but just getting a ref at times used to be a luxury. Used to be better on a Saturday but Sundays were hard work. Thinking back I can't remember how I managed to play two games a weekend, mad.

 

[Beefy]

Managers should be able to criticise referees in private and give their own assessments to the Football League. But they shouldn't be allowed to say what they want in the public because managers would use that right in order to deflect criticism from themselves and to put pressure on them ahead of the next time they ref them.

If Phil Brown wants to criticise someone for not going through to the next round of the Cup then perhaps he should consider the weakened side he chose to field and look at himself in the mirror.

 

[IronMike]

This is my only real concern of Phil Brown being your manager.
Undeniably he has great experience etc but without wishing to be demeaning, condescending or even patronising to Southend United fans in any way, shape, or form (I happen to now consider myself a follower of the club, dare I say it, a 'new' fan) but there is a reason why he's found himself managing in the fourth division.
He clearly hasn't learned from past mistakes with Hull, in fact he seems to have taken on board a few too many traits from his mentor BFS (who has learned) when commenting on refs in the manner in which he does.
My concerns lie with how his stance will affect decisions given in matches against the club.
It appears to me that, quite rightly, refs do not get intimidated by 'big' names at this level, which is exactly what PB is and it could (wrongly) be used against the team if he keeps bleating on the way he has so often done in the past.
He needs to learn that he can't bully people into getting his own way and should try more to control himself and learn that this type of thing will not influence matters positively.

 

[Fish]

If Phil Brown wants to criticise someone for not going through to the next round of the Cup then perhaps he should consider the weakened side he chose to field and look at himself in the mirror.

A good starting point would be the 13 shots we had that were off-target. By definition, each one of those was a match-changing error which cost us. Yet he focused on just one that the ref made, which may not have brought a goal anyway, because anyone who was at Accy would know that a penalty does not a certain goal make.