Brexit negotiations thread

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

More on the Seaborne Freight scandal, and another classic case of not answering important questions.

This is essentially anarchy. Government minister refusing to answer a Parliamentary Commission.

I've seen this on Twitter. The one you have here is on Russia Today. Why are the UK media not showing this? They have reported this scandal up to a point but at the point where we can find out if ministers are giving millions in public funds to their mates or whatever the reason turns out to be, the UK media seem to be turning a blind eye.

The government's distaste for Parliamentary democracy is disgusting and according to the Times Tory backbenchers are plotting to bypass the government on policy making. Mayhem.

 

[KevinJH]

Obviously been taking lessons from TM; unable to answer a direct question but perfectly able to hit the internal 'repeat' button and say the same thing over and over and assume that it's satisfactory to do so....... Well, I don't think anyone's being fooled and come the next GE I wouldn't be surprised to see major changes across all parties. Quite shameful and not a little nationally embarrassing

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk

In case you hadn't heard it before,No Brexit is more likely than no deal,apparently.

 

[MK Shrimper]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk

In case you hadn't heard it before,No Brexit is more likely than no deal,apparently.

It seems the choice is between financial turmoil or social turmoil. Well done David Cameron, pat yourself on the back.

 

[Bielzibubz]

One thing is for sure if you think the country is divided and bitter now this ain't nothing compared to what's on the horizon if Brexit doesn't actually happen.

Would I wish for civil unrest on the streets? Would I want open and actionable dissent against our elected establishment? Do I think either would be justified? Short answer a big emphatic yes. Should the powers that be now renege on the democratic vote of the people then it only has itself and it's self serving politicians to blame for all the social unrest and turmoil to come.

DC was, in my opinion anyway, right to give the people a vote on whether they wanted to continue to be a part of a financially corrupt and morally bankrupt institution. An institution that had been the instigator and driving financial force behind putting another sovereign member state in debtors prison for decades to come and all to save the Euro, and subsequently the whole EU edifice, from collapse. For him to then walk away when it didn't go the way he expected to my mind was unforgivable and cowardly.

What we've been witness to since that day is nothing short of shameful from everyone on all sides of the political spectrum. From a Tory party leadership that clearly had no intention of giving the referendum result and the people the respect and importance it and they deserved to a Labour party in opposition that has sat on the fence from that day in the vain hope that it can use the situation as a massive point scoring exercise and a way back into No10.

Should Brexit not now happen then I thank God I have no kids to leave that legacy to.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

2017 GE is a strange beast because May broke her own party's newly introduced rules on fixed terms to call an election at the absolute worst time for the Labour Party and many commentators said it would lead to Labour being out of power for a generation.

April 2017 - the absolute worst time for Labour for an election being called.

June 2017 Labour gain 40% of the vote. Biggest increase since 1945.

Cue people trying to explain that and how that was a peak. Why? Has Labour policy changed on anything? No. Has Labour personnel changed? No. Have the Tories managed to deliver anything? No. If we have an election in 2019 is that of their choosing timed to give the Tories a historic majority? No it will be because the Tory government has collapsed.

But it won't be against May. And it will be against....? Who can unite the Tories? Don't forget 48 Tory MPs forced a vote of no confidence in May and 115 of them voted to kick her out but the rest didn't, possibly because they couldn't decide who would replace her. Who do the public trust? I want a GE now, I want a GE against absolutely anyone that the Tories could have as leader, I wouldn't fear any of them.

'Corbyn's adamant approach to leaving the EU'. That is misinformation. Remain lost the referendum and Labour respect the result but only under certain circumstances. Policy at the moment as agreed at Conference is vote down May's deal, vote down no deal, push for a GE, try to renegotiate. All options on the table including Remain but excluding no deal.


'Corbyn won't get such a soft ride'. Erm, what? He has been attacked constantly from day 1 till day now by the media. I'm going to assume you were mid flow and didn't really mean to write that.


'Leadership....Momentum.....anti-Semitism'
Membership doubled because of the leadership and that brings funds and volunteers. It also brought 40% of the vote in a GE after having convincingly won 2 leadership contests. A lot of people won't like him, same as all politicians. He has massive support among the members so he will remain leader.
Momentum - I'm not a member but every one of them I have met have been average people who who a bit more energy and conviction than the average person. They galvanise and organise and in terms of canvassing are a massive asset. Online media they are widely accepted to be providing good quality succinct videos with a massive reach. Momentum are a great help readdressing media bias.

Anti-Semitism. We have a government whose MEPs were the only block in the EU to support the new anti-Semitic Hungarian leader and they continue as a government to support and arm the anti-Semitic state of Saudi Arabia. And yet we are told Corbyn is AS because....nothing that he has actually said or done but based on some journalists trawling 40 years of him being pro Palestine and in that time managing to find things that can be interpreted that way. Absolutely nothing concrete, just interpretation.

I have put myself in danger on numerous occasions to stand against racism. Do people think I would do that for many years and then back a racist. The other posters on here who back the current Labour leadership - do people think they would stand behind a racist? It is massively insulting to me personally and I'm sure to them too to be labelled in this way. And that is the intention. What will really offend the left? To trawl 40 years of activism and then misinterpret and say it often enough that it gets trotted out as if fact. That is what we are up against, and that is why putting it straight is important.

That is why all of these discussions are important. So much misinformation is passed around, when someone who got 40% in a national election 18 months ago can be declared unelectable in an election where the government would have collapsed - that shows just how much influence the right wing press are still dictating what information we are given. This stuff needs to be questioned, qualified and debated.

Have taken a day or two away from the keyboard. I fear of becoming a real couch potato, sitting on my backside, slouched in front of my computer screen. This is what Brexit has done for me!
There is such limited time in the day that thoughts aired on here turn out to be a facade of ones ideas, sometimes lacking the complexity and depth they demand. There are things I would agree with in your response to my original tract................but certainly not all.
Still hold to the reasons why Labour feared better than expected in 2017. In the end 40% means everything and nothing, no point getting a 40,000 majority in 'Gateshead East' if you can't win 'Walsall.' Yet given the confidence of that result and in face of a totally incompetent government, you'd expect Labout to be surging ahead in the polls..............they're not.

https://britainelects.com/polling/westminster/

I know you will talk with some reason about the accuracy of polls but they do give, at least, an indication. In the present circumstances any reasonable opposition should be streets ahead of this divided rabble of a government.
I should have qualified, that my thoughts on Labour being unelectable refered to a 'normal' election. You were right to point out that Labour cannot force one and if there is one in 2019 it will be because the Tory Party has imploded. Then of course, all bets are off the table, God knows how it would turn out.
There has been discussion about the degree of extremism in the UK. One argument could be that, happily the UK has avoided the nasty extremes we are now seeing displayed in mainland Europe and the british people are more level-headed. Another could be that, perhaps given the electoral system, people with extreme views on both the right and left, prefer to associate themselves and hide within with the traditional party's.
I don't personally think Corbyn is an antisemite but he has been a little naive, in the past, with those whom he has associated with. I do believe there may be an issue of antisemitism within the party. Yet, I also believe there is antisemitism and racism in the Tory Party....... it's just that they hide it a bit better.
When I talked of a 'soft ride' I refered to the catastrophic 2017 Tory campaign and the necessity of of him eventually having to come off the fence regarding Brexit. I do think you have to avoid falling in to the trap of accusing the right wing media for all Labour's ills. ............. it's not just the right-wing press that can be critical. If anything the mainstream press is rather less influential these days and social media is where apparently elections are fought and lost. At least with the traditional media, you knew where and who the message was coming from!
There you are.............a reply of sorts..............far from perfect but all I'm able to supply in the time I'm prepared to give....................and that's already too much! I could have stripped another chair downstairs by now, especially as the predicted rain hasn't yet arrived.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

One thing is for sure if you think the country is divided and bitter now this ain't nothing compared to what's on the horizon if Brexit doesn't actually happen.

Would I wish for civil unrest on the streets? Would I want open and actionable dissent against our elected establishment? Do I think either would be justified? Short answer a big emphatic yes. Should the powers that be now renege on the democratic vote of the people then it only has itself and it's self serving politicians to blame for all the social unrest and turmoil to come.

DC was, in my opinion anyway, right to give the people a vote on whether they wanted to continue to be a part of a financially corrupt and morally bankrupt institution. An institution that had been the instigator and driving financial force behind putting another sovereign member state in debtors prison for decades to come and all to save the Euro, and subsequently the whole EU edifice, from collapse. For him to then walk away when it didn't go the way he expected to my mind was unforgivable and cowardly.

What we've been witness to since that day is nothing short of shameful from everyone on all sides of the political spectrum. From a Tory party leadership that clearly had no intention of giving the referendum result and the people the respect and importance it and they deserved to a Labour party in opposition that has sat on the fence from that day in the vain hope that it can use the situation as a massive point scoring exercise and a way back into No10.

Should Brexit not now happen then I thank God I have no kids to leave that legacy to.

Powers that be = The Conservative Party. They are in power, if Brexit doesn't happen it is on them.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Have taken a day or two away from the keyboard. I fear of becoming a real couch potato, sitting on my backside, slouched in front of my computer screen. This is what Brexit has done for me!
There is such limited time in the day that thoughts aired on here turn out to be a facade of ones ideas, sometimes lacking the complexity and depth they demand. There are things I would agree with in your response to my original tract................but certainly not all.
Still hold to the reasons why Labour feared better than expected in 2017. In the end 40% means everything and nothing, no point getting a 40,000 majority in 'Gateshead East' if you can't win 'Walsall.' Yet given the confidence of that result and in face of a totally incompetent government, you'd expect Labout to be surging ahead in the polls..............they're not.

https://britainelects.com/polling/westminster/

I know you will talk with some reason about the accuracy of polls but they do give, at least, an indication. In the present circumstances any reasonable opposition should be streets ahead of this divided rabble of a government.
I should have qualified, that my thoughts on Labour being unelectable refered to a 'normal' election. You were right to point out that Labour cannot force one and if there is one in 2019 it will be because the Tory Party has imploded. Then of course, all bets are off the table, God knows how it would turn out.
There has been discussion about the degree of extremism in the UK. One argument could be that, happily the UK has avoided the nasty extremes we are now seeing displayed in mainland Europe and the british people are more level-headed. Another could be that, perhaps given the electoral system, people with extreme views on both the right and left, prefer to associate themselves and hide within with the traditional party's.
I don't personally think Corbyn is an antisemite but he has been a little naive, in the past, with those whom he has associated with. I do believe there may be an issue of antisemitism within the party. Yet, I also believe there is antisemitism and racism in the Tory Party....... it's just that they hide it a bit better.
When I talked of a 'soft ride' I refered to the catastrophic 2017 Tory campaign and the necessity of of him eventually having to come off the fence regarding Brexit. I do think you have to avoid falling in to the trap of accusing the right wing media for all Labour's ills. ............. it's not just the right-wing press that can be critical. If anything the mainstream press is rather less influential these days and social media is where apparently elections are fought and lost. At least with the traditional media, you knew where and who the message was coming from!
There you are.............a reply of sorts..............far from perfect but all I'm able to supply in the time I'm prepared to give....................and that's already too much! I could have stripped another chair downstairs by now, especially as the predicted rain hasn't yet arrived.

Fair play. I wrote mine in the passenger seat of the car and then in Top Shop and similar (I do have a quick look round and then give an opinion but I don't need to fully engage that experience). Good luck with the chair stripping!

 

[KevinJH]

Powers that be = The Conservative Party. They are in power, if Brexit doesn't happen it is on them.

And if not them, then potentially the Backbencher's (from all parties) to whom the Speaker appears to have given the power to to dictate how Parliament (business) is run. Makes one wonder if a 'Government' as we all know it, will actually now be necessary - just have what in effect will be a Coalition where everyone votes on Subject X and gets on with it......

 

[rigsby]

One thing is for sure if you think the country is divided and bitter now this ain't nothing compared to what's on the horizon if Brexit doesn't actually happen.

Would I wish for civil unrest on the streets? Would I want open and actionable dissent against our elected establishment? Do I think either would be justified? Short answer a big emphatic yes. Should the powers that be now renege on the democratic vote of the people then it only has itself and it's self serving politicians to blame for all the social unrest and turmoil to come.

DC was, in my opinion anyway, right to give the people a vote on whether they wanted to continue to be a part of a financially corrupt and morally bankrupt institution. An institution that had been the instigator and driving financial force behind putting another sovereign member state in debtors prison for decades to come and all to save the Euro, and subsequently the whole EU edifice, from collapse. For him to then walk away when it didn't go the way he expected to my mind was unforgivable and cowardly.

What we've been witness to since that day is nothing short of shameful from everyone on all sides of the political spectrum. From a Tory party leadership that clearly had no intention of giving the referendum result and the people the respect and importance it and they deserved to a Labour party in opposition that has sat on the fence from that day in the vain hope that it can use the situation as a massive point scoring exercise and a way back into No10.

Should Brexit not now happen then I thank God I have no kids to leave that legacy to.

Of course he was right. All the MPs agreed with him, otherwise we wouldn't have a referendum.....Remember way back to the last GE, the same MP's said they would respect the vote.

The main reason of course was the rise of UKIP. Both Tories and Labour were in total fear that the 2 party system was in threat. They thought we would vote remain, which would end the rise of UKIP and they would all hop on the gravy train to Brussels.

Of course the hard left blame all their failures on a Tory because just like my union they can never accept why they lost. Just a few years ago you couldn't mention the words reform, corruption or immigration without out someone screaming little Englander, xenophobe or racist.....By the exact same people who refuse to accept democracy.

Once again I thank them all. Without them there would be no Brexit......The only absolute fact in the whole debate.

 

[Benfleet A1]

It seems the choice is between financial turmoil or social turmoil. Well done David Cameron, pat yourself on the back.

I'll take a few punch up's in the street over not having a pot to **** in all day long. The British soon get bored when it comes to street protests and a swift smack in the chops with a riot shield often gets the message through.

Staying in means we can possibly influence change, leaving does not. It's that simple really.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Have taken a day or two away from the keyboard. I fear of becoming a real couch potato, sitting on my backside, slouched in front of my computer screen. This is what Brexit has done for me!
There is such limited time in the day that thoughts aired on here turn out to be a facade of ones ideas, sometimes lacking the complexity and depth they demand. There are things I would agree with in your response to my original tract................but certainly not all.
Still hold to the reasons why Labour feared better than expected in 2017. In the end 40% means everything and nothing, no point getting a 40,000 majority in 'Gateshead East' if you can't win 'Walsall.' Yet given the confidence of that result and in face of a totally incompetent government, you'd expect Labout to be surging ahead in the polls..............they're not.

https://britainelects.com/polling/westminster/

I know you will talk with some reason about the accuracy of polls but they do give, at least, an indication. In the present circumstances any reasonable opposition should be streets ahead of this divided rabble of a government.
I should have qualified, that my thoughts on Labour being unelectable refered to a 'normal' election. You were right to point out that Labour cannot force one and if there is one in 2019 it will be because the Tory Party has imploded. Then of course, all bets are off the table, God knows how it would turn out.
There has been discussion about the degree of extremism in the UK. One argument could be that, happily the UK has avoided the nasty extremes we are now seeing displayed in mainland Europe and the british people are more level-headed. Another could be that, perhaps given the electoral system, people with extreme views on both the right and left, prefer to associate themselves and hide within with the traditional party's.
I don't personally think Corbyn is an antisemite but he has been a little naive, in the past, with those whom he has associated with. I do believe there may be an issue of antisemitism within the party. Yet, I also believe there is antisemitism and racism in the Tory Party....... it's just that they hide it a bit better.
When I talked of a 'soft ride' I refered to the catastrophic 2017 Tory campaign and the necessity of of him eventually having to come off the fence regarding Brexit. I do think you have to avoid falling in to the trap of accusing the right wing media for all Labour's ills. ............. it's not just the right-wing press that can be critical. If anything the mainstream press is rather less influential these days and social media is where apparently elections are fought and lost. At least with the traditional media, you knew where and who the message was coming from!
There you are.............a reply of sorts..............far from perfect but all I'm able to supply in the time I'm prepared to give....................and that's already too much! I could have stripped another chair downstairs by now, especially as the predicted rain hasn't yet arrived.

Times have certainly changed since Feb.1974 when I spent election night at (winning Labour candidate) Bruce George's house in Walsall South,after canvassing for him all day in the constituency.BG correctly spotted, from the Boundaries Commision report, that Walsall South was a winnable seat.largely due to the influx of immigrants into the constituency.Presumably his large personal vote along with that of David Winnick's in the neighbouring Walsall North constituency has now evaporated.In any case, the task for Labour at the next general election (as Another Surrey Shrimper has pointed out) will be to try and win those 60/70 seats in the Midlands and the NE which were predominantly leave voting constituencies in the 2016 referendum.Including I imagine,Gateshead.

 

[MK Shrimper]

I'll take a few punch up's in the street over not having a pot to **** in all day long. The British soon get bored when it comes to street protests and a swift smack in the chops with a riot shield often gets the message through.

Staying in means we can possibly influence change, leaving does not. It's that simple really.

I sincerely hope that's all it is.

 

[rigsby]

I'll take a few punch up's in the street over not having a pot to **** in all day long. The British soon get bored when it comes to street protests and a swift smack in the chops with a riot shield often gets the message through.

Staying in means we can possibly influence change, leaving does not. It's that simple really.

Leave means its not a possibility, its a certainty we can make change...….As many as we like, whenever we like. If your the 5th largest economy in the world, whos first language is English that's a great place to be.

Fortunately the majority in Britain know this to be true. The country is not divided, the 25% who didn't vote respect the decision and so do most remainers. Its less than 20% who cant accept the result. Mainly selfish people in Westminster and places like the BBC (85% of political guest are remain)

By the way its the left who like to smash things and need a riot shield in the face. The reason the likes of MI6 and army generals are worried is because its Britains hard working honest people who will be donning yellow vests......The very peole who can bring the country to a standstill in 1 hour......The very people who wont go back bored to their mums house in Surrey after half a days left wing, look at me, activism.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

And if not them, then potentially the Backbencher's (from all parties) to whom the Speaker appears to have given the power to to dictate how Parliament (business) is run. Makes one wonder if a 'Government' as we all know it, will actually now be necessary - just have what in effect will be a Coalition where everyone votes on Subject X and get on with it......

It is crazy how the government are potentially losing power in this way and yet still carrying on as if they are unaware that they have lost authority.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Theresa May's speech today is again putting up her deal as the only version of Leave and stating that Tory governments always respect referendum results........following the 1997 vote on Wales, the Conservative Party completely opposed respecting the result of the Welsh referendum for more than 8 years – Theresa May herself even voting against the bill in Parliament to respect the result and initiate the formation of the Welsh assembly.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Leave means its not a possibility, its a certainty we can make change...….As many as we like, whenever we like. If your the 5th largest economy in the world, whos first language is English that's a great place to be.

Fortunately the majority in Britain know this to be true. The country is not divided, the 25% who didn't vote respect the decision and so do most remainers. Its less than 20% who cant accept the result. Mainly selfish people in Westminster and places like the BBC (85% of political guest are remain)

By the way its the left who like to smash things and need a riot shield in the face. The reason the likes of MI6 and army generals are worried is because its Britains hard working honest people who will be donning yellow vests......The very peole who can bring the country to a standstill in 1 hour......The very people who wont go back bored to their mums house in Surrey after half a days left wing, look at me, activism.

Have you never heard of the EDL?

Apparently counter terrorism costs are currently as high for far right extremists as they are for Islamists. The murder of Jo Cox has been followed by murder plots against Sadiq Khan and Jeremy Corbyn.

 

[rigsby]

Have you never heard of the EDL?

Apparently counter terrorism costs are currently as high for far right extremists as they are for Islamists. The murder of Jo Cox has been followed by murder plots against Sadiq Khan and Jeremy Corbyn.

What has the EDL or fake news have to do with my post. Another example of your Straw man tactics when you have no answers

 

[MK Shrimper]

Fortunately the majority in Britain know this to be true. The country is not divided, the 25% who didn't vote respect the decision and so do most remainers. Its less than 20% who cant accept the result. Mainly selfish people in Westminster and places like the BBC (85% of political guest are remain)

Show some evidence for your working.

 

[Bielzibubz]

I'll take a few punch up's in the street over not having a pot to **** in all day long. The British soon get bored when it comes to street protests and a swift smack in the chops with a riot shield often gets the message through.

Staying in means we can possibly influence change, leaving does not. It's that simple really.

This is a facet of this argument I find totally baffling. It's impossible for the EU to enact any meaningful reform and impossible for it to be influenced in any way that may alter it's chosen path. It's sole purpose, as has been admitted time and time again, is the creation of an integrated European Superstate with individual sovereign powers devolved to a coterie of un-elected bureaucrats in Brussells. It's been in the planning for decades and the implementations of the failed Euro as a currency was and is a major part of the jigsaw. Without it there is no integration, there is no EU and certainly no gravy train, which is why we saw Greece used as a scapegoat and money merry go round by the ECB and IMF just after the financial crash of 2008. Greece, it's economy, it's people and it's debts were used to bail out the French and German banks and by doing so saved the Euro from certain collapse.

The EU doesn't want to reform. It can't reform. Our politicians don't want it to reform and never have (ask Neil Kinnock and his wife) We are and have been for many years been but little players in their game. David Cameron and his referendum gave us little players a much bigger role to play in their game but now they don't like how get to dictate some of the rules of that game. The EU is ****ting itself over the potential ramifications of our Brexit and will employ every tactic going to ensure that TM and ALL politicians of ALL political parties of ALL member states don't do anything that could possibly wobble the house of cards.