Brexit negotiations thread

[kaymac]

No it is not and such a romanticised and idealistic picture of the EU I find quite unpalatable but keep on dreaming.....

 

[rigsby]

The previous 50 years or so of course encompassed two world wars, and on the contrary, it is everything to do with the European ideal. The history of France and Germany alone is one of frequent wars and conflicts and the advent of the EU has hopefully eradicated the symptoms and causes of that and brought peace in Europe for an unprecedented period.

Talking of historical facts, Weren’t both world wars caused by people who wanted to unite Europe with their own selfish political ideology?

The EU has nothing to do with the peace. It was Cold War mutual destruction. It’s just not fashionable to have War in Europe.We prefer murdering innocent people who have never left their valley in Afghanistan.

That’s far enough away so that no one cares and in Brussels they can slap each other on the back....After all if we kill 1m people under that wonderful banner called a coalition. Then none of us has to take any responsibility or guilt.

 

[blues exile]

Talking of historical facts, Weren’t both world wars caused by people who wanted to unite Europe with their own selfish political ideology?

The EU has nothing to do with the peace. It was Cold War mutual destruction. It’s just not fashionable to have War in Europe.We prefer murdering innocent people who have never left their valley in Afghanistan.

That’s far enough away so that no one cares and in Brussels they can slap each other on the back....After all if we kill 1m people under that wonderful banner called a coalition. Then none of us has to take any responsibility or guilt.

The war in Afghanistan was American led under the NATO banner so not the responsibility of the EU, most of whose nations apart from warmongering Britain were somewhat lukewarm at best, despite all the hype about a coalition of the willing from Bush and Blair.

 

[blues exile]

No it is not and such a romanticised and idealistic picture of the EU I find quite unpalatable but keep on dreaming.....

Nothing romantic or idealistic, just plain old facts, which sadly, get in the way of your hand me down anti European rhetoric.

 

[rigsby]

The war in Afghanistan was American led under the NATO banner so not the responsibility of the EU, most of whose nations apart from warmongering Britain were somewhat lukewarm at best, despite all the hype about a coalition of the willing from Bush and Blair.

I was using Afghanistan as an example but I mean all the attacks on the ME. Which by the way are not NATO operations.

So what does the EU do to stop its members selling arms to anyone they like. Germany sold Israel its nuclear subs.....If you don't know how dangerous that decision was look up 'The Samson option'

 

[blues exile]

I was using Afghanistan as an example but I mean all the attacks on the ME. Which by the way are not NATO operations.

So what does the EU do to stop its members selling arms to anyone they like. Germany sold Israel its nuclear subs.....If you don't know how dangerous that decision was look up 'The Samson option'

Arms deals will happen inside or outside of the EU. No doubt we will still be selling arms to murderous regimes like Saudi Arabia as long as the Tories are in power long after we leave the EU. Which of course explodes the myth of those 'bureaucrats in Brussels' being in control of everything when Germany can freely do a deal with Israel over nuclear capable submarines. If only the EU did have the power to put a stop to that kind of activity.

 

[rigsby]

Arms deals will happen inside or outside of the EU. No doubt we will still be selling arms to murderous regimes like Saudi Arabia as long as the Tories are in power long after we leave the EU. Which of course explodes the myth of those 'bureaucrats in Brussels' being in control of everything when Germany can freely do a deal with Israel over nuclear capable submarines. If only the EU did have the power to put a stop to that kind of activity.

The old left wing get out of Jail free card ‘The Tories’..... It was the arch globalist and big supporter of the EU...Tony Blair who ignored his cabinet and declared war with Iraq by lying in parliament about WMD but as you would say don’t let facts get in the way.

 

[blues exile]

The old left wing get out of Jail free card ‘The Tories’..... It was the arch globalist and big supporter of the EU...Tony Blair who ignored his cabinet and declared war with Iraq by lying in parliament about WMD but as you would say don’t let facts get in the way.

Absolutely right. No difference between Tony Blair and the Tories. Now we have got our party back things are somewhat different.

 

[rigsby]

Absolutely right. No difference between Tony Blair and the Tories. Now we have got our party back things are somewhat different.

With John McDonell announcing he is still in favour of a united Ireland, that’s a green light to the IRA.....So if Labour won the next GE we might well see the British army on the streets of the Uk once again.

 

[dcblue]

The last fifty years have worked a little bit better than the previous fifty to that, I would suggest, but don't let history get in the way of the facts.

If you mean peace in Europe, then I would suggest that the threat of nuclear weapons and NATO had more to do with it than the concept of the EU.
If you mean everything else then I n my opinion the EEC was a good idea, but as the intention from the very start was the EU then it was only a way of deceiving the electorate until they achieved their goal. With a bit of luck the people of the EU will wake up in time to topple this concept before it does any more harm to the whole continent.
The last 50 years, except for the last 10, trundled along without too many troubles to it's progress as people were not really interested, but as it's grip tightened the kickback slowly increased. National governments mostly ignored this inconvenience so the movement against the EU become more and more popular. Most governments are still ignoring this resistance, ours included. When a large proportion of people are ignored and dismissed, as loons, fascists or many other common terms in use these days, then civil unrest happens.
So you may think the last 50 years have been good I think the next 50 years are going to be horrendous and I am so relieved I have no grandchildren who will have to live/for through it.

 

[blues exile]

With John McDonell announcing he is still in favour of a united Ireland, that’s a green light to the IRA.....So if Labour won the next GE we might well see the British army on the streets of the Uk once again.

I think most people would be in favour of a united Ireland, an entirely reasonable concept given that the artificial construct of Northern Ireland was a political expedient only designed to be a short term fix by the politicians of the time. How the goal is achieved is another matter but to attempt to link McDonnell, or Corbyn for that matter, to the IRA is an entirely specious argument that has long since lost all credibility despite the unflagging attempts of the right wing media.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

With John McDonell announcing he is still in favour of a united Ireland, that’s a green light to the IRA.....So if Labour won the next GE we might well see the British army on the streets of the Uk once again.

Actually,it's a green light to Sinn Féin-not the IRA.Mrs May better make sure that NI sovereignty stays intact, in whatever Brexit deal she concludes with the EU.

 

[rigsby]

Indeed the EU expansionism has pushed us nearer war with Russia.

 

[rigsby]

Sinn Fein and the IRA are the same thing. Adams and McGuiness were Murderers before they encouraged others to do their dirty deeds.

They couldn’t win with democracy so they opted for guns and bombs. Of course out of touch lefties living in Spain could never understand this.... Your support added to the murder and misery of the troubles.

 

[dcblue]

Absolutely right. No difference between Tony Blair and the Tories. Now we have got our party back things are somewhat different.

Tories and Labour have both moved to the left which is why many voters feel they have no party which reflects their views, ie true conservatism. This is why UKIP grew in popularity and became the third party, albeit for a very short time. There is now a large vacuum from centre of politics to the far right which is why parliament, aided and abetted by the MSM, calls anyone to the right of the current Tories as far right extremists. They are fearful of a new party being formed to interfere with the two party system they have perfected over the decades.

 

[blues exile]

If you mean peace in Europe, then I would suggest that the threat of nuclear weapons and NATO had more to do with it than the concept of the EU.
If you mean everything else then I n my opinion the EEC was a good idea, but as the intention from the very start was the EU then it was only a way of deceiving the electorate until they achieved their goal. With a bit of luck the people of the EU will wake up in time to topple this concept before it does any more harm to the whole continent.
The last 50 years, except for the last 10, trundled along without too many troubles to it's progress as people were not really interested, but as it's grip tightened the kickback slowly increased. National governments mostly ignored this inconvenience so the movement against the EU become more and more popular. Most governments are still ignoring this resistance, ours included. When a large proportion of people are ignored and dismissed, as loons, fascists or many other common terms in use these days, then civil unrest happens.
So you may think the last 50 years have been good I think the next 50 years are going to be horrendous and I am so relieved I have no grandchildren who will have to live/for through it.

I certainly agree with your last paragraph and the blame unequivocally lies with opportunist politicians of all shades who have assiduously cultivated the myth of 'unelected bureaucrats from Brussels' as a scapegoat for all their successive failures to deal with major events such as the global recession, repercussions of unnecessary interventions in the middle east and multinational conglomerates causing havoc in the third world by their rapacity whilst avoiding paying fair taxes in Europe and America. The UK electorate certainly have been deceived into blaming the EU for its own governments' failures and even after Brexit, the UK's subsequent struggles to make its own way in the world will probably be ascribed to the EU in some dubious way.

 

[Benfleet A1]

I think most people would be in favour of a united Ireland, an entirely reasonable concept given that the artificial construct of Northern Ireland was a political expedient only designed to be a short term fix by the politicians of the time. How the goal is achieved is another matter but to attempt to link McDonnell, or Corbyn for that matter, to the IRA is an entirely specious argument that has long since lost all credibility despite the unflagging attempts of the right wing media.

I doubt the vast majority of protestants would agree with you on a united Ireland.

 

[dcblue]

I certainly agree with your last paragraph and the blame unequivocally lies with opportunist politicians of all shades who have assiduously cultivated the myth of 'unelected bureaucrats from Brussels' as a scapegoat for all their successive failures to deal with major events such as the global recession, repercussions of unnecessary interventions in the middle east and multinational conglomerates causing havoc in the third world by their rapacity whilst avoiding paying fair taxes in Europe and America. The UK electorate certainly have been deceived into blaming the EU for its own governments' failures and even after Brexit, the UK's subsequent struggles to make its own way in the world will probably be ascribed to the EU in some dubious way.

just checked my post and last few words should be live/ die through it.

These conglomerates rule through lobbying and Brussels seems to cave in to it.
They sponsor factory moves throughout Europe and from EU to non EU by giving grants and loans.
No the UK electorate have been lied to for over 40 years to cover up the influence of Brussels over our own parliament. It's no wonder our politicians are so useless. Speaking for myself I do blame all our recent governments for allowing an unelected commission so much say.
The only way this country will improve is to get out of the EU and get ourselves a government with some ideals and backbone. I must admit that won't be easy but a better alternative than being tied to the EU, which is heading for chaos.

 

[blues exile]

[

Indeed the EU expansionism has pushed us nearer war with Russia.

More a case of aggression by Nato rather than EU expansionism but living near the front line (the Russian border is only 120 km away) I am of course acutely aware of just how dangerous a situation it is. Britain of course is the cheerleader and main sabre rattler in NATO next to the USA and wil no doubt continue to be as long as the Tories are in power, whether in or out of the EU. The anti Russian rhetoric and the fallout from the ludicrous Skrypal case, is ramping up the tension for purely domestic reasons no doubt

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

just checked my post and last few words should be live/ die through it.

These conglomerates rule through lobbying and Brussels seems to cave in to it.
They sponsor factory moves throughout Europe and from EU to non EU by giving grants and loans.
No the UK electorate have been lied to for over 40 years to cover up the influence of Brussels over our own parliament. It's no wonder our politicians are so useless. Speaking for myself I do blame all our recent governments for allowing an unelected commission so much say.
The only way this country will improve is to get out of the EU and get ourselves a government with some ideals and backbone. I must admit that won't be easy but a better alternative than being tied to the EU, which is heading for chaos.

Opinion is not the same as fact,you know.