Blimey

[steveo]

A British politician standing up for Britain. Thats a fairly novel approach.

Measures to tackle the crisis in Europe will continue without the UK after David Cameron vetoed a treaty change.
Mr Cameron said it was not in Britain's interest "so I didn't sign up to it"

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

A British politician standing up for Britain. Thats a fairly novel approach.

Sounds more like he was trying to keep his backbenchers on board to me.

 

[markw]

progressive politics..... :smile:

 

[canveyshrimper]

Sounds more like he was trying to keep his backbenchers on board to me.

It would. :smile:

Better this than the cave in over Lisbon after Brown promised us a referendum. A tidying up exercise, my arse!!

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

It would. :smile:

Better this than the cave in over Lisbon after Brown promised us a referendum. A tidying up exercise, my arse!!

What this treaty will mean is that in future there'll be a two track Europe which GB won't be part of(or at least not in the fast lane).
To quote The Guardian's editorial today:-"There is only one direction of travel for British Eurosceptics. They can pull Britain further away from the core Europe that is being created, but they can not simultaneously exert more influence over it. It's nothing to do with economics or politics. It's physics."

 

[markw]

What this treaty will mean is that in future there'll be a two track Europe which GB won't be part of(or at least not in the fast lane)
To quote The Guardian's editorial today:-"There is only one direction of travel for British Eurosceptics. They can pull Britain further away from the core Europe that is being created, but they can not simultaneously exert more influence over it. It's nothing to do with economics or politics. It's physics."

interesting physics

 

[canveyshrimper]

What this treaty will mean is that in future there'll be a two track Europe which GB won't be part of(or at least not in the fast lane).
To quote The Guardian's editorial today:-"There is only one direction of travel for British Eurosceptics. They can pull Britain further away from the core Europe that is being created, but they can not simultaneously exert more influence over it. It's nothing to do with economics or politics. It's physics."

Surprisingly I have no issue about our membership of the EU/EC/EEC/Common Market or whatever it may be dressed up as, but as a trading area. The single market has been and hopefully will continue to be of great benefit to us, in terms of both import & export of goods, but also of financial services. I see no reason for us to have fiscal or financial union, no reason for political union and even less reason for a United States of Europe.

If David Cameron has stood by our rights and the City of London can be independent then more power to his elbow. IMO sooner rather than later the Euro as a currency will collapse, there's talk that the Greeks will soon revert to the Drachma. And I may be wrong but for any major treaty changes some countries (Ireland for sure) have to put this in a referendum, so I'm not sure how this can be rushed through as both Sarlozy & Merkel wish.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Sounds more like he was trying to keep his backbenchers on board to me.

Yep, holding his own party together by the sound of it. The real consequences of Cameron's actions last night will be played out over the years and decades to come. Will it be like the fifties, when the EEC was formed, that the UK will remain on the outside, looking in? Domestically, what on earth does this do for the coalition. Are the Liberal Democrats going to be happy to participate in our virtual EU isolation. Who would have thought that the issue of Europe could possibly prove a point of friction between the two parties? :winking: Where's Osymandus when you need him?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Yep, holding his own party together by the sound of it. The real consequences of Cameron's actions last night will be played out over the years and decades to come. Will it be like the fifties, when the EEC was formed, that the UK will remain on the outside, looking in? Domestically, what on earth does this do for the coalition. Are the Liberal Democrats going to be happy to participate in our virtual EU isolation. Who would have thought that the issue of Europe could possibly prove a point of friction between the two parties? :winking: Where's Osymandus when you need him?

Interestingly,Europe has destroyed the political careers of the last three Tory Prime Ministers-Heath,Thatcher and Major.Who's to say it won't end up destroying Cameron's career too?
Like you,Yogi, I look forward to hearing the reactions of the Coalition's Lib-Dem "partners" in due course.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Tory MP Bill Cash was moaning about Europe on election night, coun't wait till the next day before their party infighting started. Cameron has a lot of juggling to do to keep his party let alone the coalition together.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Surprisingly I have no issue about our membership of the EU/EC/EEC/Common Market or whatever it may be dressed up as, but as a trading area. The single market has been and hopefully will continue to be of great benefit to us, in terms of both import & export of goods, but also of financial services. I see no reason for us to have fiscal or financial union, no reason for political union and even less reason for a United States of Europe.

If David Cameron has stood by our rights and the City of London can be independent then more power to his elbow. IMO sooner rather than later the Euro as a currency will collapse, there's talk that the Greeks will soon revert to the Drachma. And I may be wrong but for any major treaty changes some countries (Ireland for sure) have to put this in a referendum, so I'm not sure how this can be rushed through as both Sarlozy & Merkel wish.

You'll no doubt be aware that it was Churchill in his great 1946 speech, who first called for a United states of Europe.

Sorry, but there's no chance whatsoever that the Euro "as a currency"will collapse.That's just wishful thinking on the part of Euro sceptics, such as yourself.

 

[Neil_F]

Sorry, but there's no chance whatsoever that the Euro "as a currenry"will collapse.That's just wishful thinking on the part of Euro sceptics, such as yourself.

It can't survive in its current form. To do so Germany will have to give way on the ECB acting as lender of last resort and Eurobonds. It doesn't look likely at the moment.

It will also need some kind of transfer payments from north to south. I doubt this will be as a full fiscal union but rather some kind of spending by Brussels on specific programmes/projects.

The economic reality is currently pointing towards a break up of monetary union. The politics of it is secondary until the economics are fixed. To think otherwise is ignoring the reality of the situation

 

[Napster]

I like the idea of the Euro as a currenry.

 

[MK Shrimper]

I like the idea of the Euro as a currenry.

Is that like a sultana? :unsure:

 

[C'mon you Shrimpers]

What this treaty will mean is that in future there'll be a two track Europe which GB won't be part of(or at least not in the fast lane).
To quote The Guardian's editorial today:-"There is only one direction of travel for British Eurosceptics. They can pull Britain further away from the core Europe that is being created, but they can not simultaneously exert more influence over it. It's nothing to do with economics or politics. It's physics."

]]

Barna there is a real world out there beyond the Guardian editorials. It amuses me that the left applaud the proposals that seem simply the policies this coalition have already put in place whilst sneering that Cameron has not signed up to the Tobin tax. The EU is a bureacratic juggernaut heasding for the rocks. At least some people have shouted mayday.
PS the horrid bankers have made a fortune for this country over the years. It's not a perfect system but tell me which party made a pact with the "devil" and should no real zeal for reform or regulation.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

]]

Barna there is a real world out there beyond the Guardian editorials. It amuses me that the left applaud the proposals that seem simply the policies this coalition have already put in place whilst sneering that Cameron has not signed up to the Tobin tax. The EU is a bureacratic juggernaut heasding for the rocks. At least some people have shouted mayday.
PS the horrid bankers have made a fortune for this country over the years. It's not a perfect system but tell me which party made a pact with the "devil" and should no real zeal for reform or regulation.

I'm quite happy in the real world here in Spain,where I've just picked up a prescription from the Doctor's(I'm a diabetic)for essential drugs that will cost me 25.39 euros instead of 98.29 euros,which is their true cost.We returned here on Tuesday from a hugely enjoyable,long weekend in France.Both of these countries are of course in the Eurozone and will continue to have a real influence on future decision making in Europe.Incidentally,I remember driving to a friend's wedding in Sweden back in the late 80's and having to change currencies numerous times en route.A friend working in Brussels,around about the same time,kept currency "boxes" for the half a dozen cities that he and his wife could easily go to for a weekend away from there. Thankfully those days are mostly over,in mainland Europe,at least.

IMO, some kind of FTT on the City is inevitable,at some point in the future.I was interested to hear the editor of the New Statesman on Question Time last night, suggest that such a tax would raise 59 billion pounds.Not an insignificant amount.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

It can't survive in its current form. To do so Germany will have to give way on the ECB acting as lender of last resort and Eurobonds. It doesn't look likely at the moment.

It will also need some kind of transfer payments from north to south. I doubt this will be as a full fiscal union but rather some kind of spending by Brussels on specific programmes/projects.

The economic reality is currently pointing towards a break up of monetary union. The politics of it is secondary until the economics are fixed. To think otherwise is ignoring the reality of the situation

Is this similar to how at a UK level England subsidises Scotland and how the South East subsidises the North?

If currency union is bad for disparate economies, would we not be better off telling the North to **** off and kicking them out of the pound?

 

[C'mon you Shrimpers]

I'm quite happy in the real world here in Spain,where I've just picked up a prescription from the Doctor's(I'm a diabetic)for essential drugs that will cost me 25.39 euros instead of 98.29 euros,which is their true cost.W

Barna if you hadn't noticed Spain is an economic basket case!

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Barna if you hadn't noticed Spain is an economic basket case!

Spain certainly has economic problems but the health service here is better than the NHS(IMO)and the UK currently has higher debt levels than Spain.Granted(since Spain is in the Eurozone)it can't set its own interest rates or devalue its currency.
I wonder,though, how much longer the UK will be able to continue to borrow at the rate of 2% interest in the money markets?Not much longer, I'd wager, if the country slips into a double dip recession,which now looks increasingly likely, in 2012.

 

[Neil_F]

Is this similar to how at a UK level England subsidises Scotland and how the South East subsidises the North?

If currency union is bad for disparate economies, would we not be better off telling the North to **** off and kicking them out of the pound?

It is. One of the interesting things about Scottish independence would be the monetary position. Remaining within Sterling without the associated fioscal transfers would put real pressure on the scottish economy. Salmond thinks that he can plug the gap with North Sea oil, but it isn't exactly a sustainable solution.