Absolutely disgraceful

[canveyshrimper]

Quote[/b] (TonyTheKray @ Oct. 23 2006,15:45)]

Quote[/b] (Richard_Cadette @ Oct. 21 2006,18:27)]I have managed to somehow refrain from posting hours after the final whistle in previous weeks, purely because I felt the need to try and sit back and evaluate what I had just witnessed before saying things which werent necessary, but no more.

What I witnessed this afternoon was one of the most gutless, inept, passionless and pathetic displays I have seen from a Southend side in a LONG time.

After seeing us play so well on Tuesday night, I arrived this afternoon with high hopes that we were turning the corner and things were on the up - I could not have been more wrong.

A shambolic performance, almost without exception, and I include the management of the team in that assessment.

Make no mistakes, Ipswich are a poor side, one of the poorest we have played this season, and yet again, we allow them to score 3 of the easiest goals you will ever see.

On top of this, what the hell does Tilly say to them at half time these days?.... Go out there lads and do your best to concede as many goals as possible in the first 3 minutes of the second half, and then see if we can turn it around?

 OK, I jest, but I am sorry, he must be doing something very wrong at half time for them to continually concede so early in the second half - It was embarrassing, and yet, you knew, you absolutely knew, it was going to happen.

His substitutions were bizarre to say the least.  OK, Freddie and Matt were unwell, but why oh why was Jay Smith and Moussa not given a run out?  People can argue whether or not Smithy is good enough for this league, and I must say, I have my doubts, but for goodness sake, can we not at least try and find out?

?  What has he got to do to get some time on the pitch for us this season?  

I heard he slammed his top down when Tilly obviously told him that sorry Jay, were 1-3 with no hope of getting anything else out of the game, I am going to play a centre half in midfield and even with one substitution left up my sleeve, Im still not going to put you on.  Ridiculous, Im sorry, but it is, and I really feel for Jay - I hope, for his sake, that he demands a transfer, because I want to see him do well.

As for the rest, defensively, all over the show this afternoon again.  Hammell is OK on the ball, and going forward, but defensively, not even close to being good enough.  His distribution and set pieces were poor today as well.  AB had yet another terrible afternoon at the office.  Clarke I actually thought was the pick of a bad bunch and wasnt nearly as bad as some have said.  Hunt was poor, which is dissapointing as I have been saying for ages he should be back at right back.

Midfield, Gower was completely non existent until we were 0-3 down, and that cannot happen.  Why is it when he has a bad game, he has a terrible game???

Gutteridge was again woeful.  He is in the side to not only tackle and fight, but to get forward and support the front two, and I dont think I have seen him do that once this season.  Maher tried, but most things he tried were not good enough,  Set pieces, which almost goes without saying these days, were shocking, abd his passing was not quite on the radar today, and usually, again as always, looked to blame someone else.  Francis did OK, but has the worst first touch I have ever seen on a professional football player, and I include Dave Regis in that!!

Up front Freddie and Matt were both non existent, but thats not all there fault.  With a supply line like we have, Ronaldinho and Henry would stuggle up top.  Having said that, Freddie needs a partner that carries with him some kind of goal threat, and I hate to say it, but Tilly has signed some very mediocre strikers from what I can see.  The one gem has now, for reasons we still have no idea about, left us, and that needs to be addressed asap.  Having said that, I will give credit for Paynter who came on, ran his heart out, and actually looked effective, and a performance like that week in week out would do wonders for us and Freddie.

Tilly is not beyond criticism here either, something is wrong with us at the moment, there seems to be no organisation at the back, the team talks at half time have the desired effect, but only for our opponents and he is clearly targeting one player that he doesnt like, and that is Jay Smith.  I think he has to buck his ideas up as well as the team - Oh, and I dont want no 'Have I forgotten about the last 2 and a half years' crap that gets spouted on here as soon as you criticise the manager, because no, I havent, but he needs to up his game considerably, along with the team.

I hate to say it, but I cannot see us getting out of this current mess we are in.  We have played 3 extremely average Championship sides in a week, and have conceded 6 goals at home in the process and only gained one point.  That is nowhere near good enough and things need to be changed radically for us to improve.

Other teams are using the loan market, and we have to do so as well, no excuses about money etc and how difficult it is to get players in on loan because that is bullsh*t, heard it too many times and am no longer interested in it.  Other teams, lesser teams, do it, so we can too.

Havent felt this angry and let down after a Southend performance for quite some time, and at the moment, it is no longer fun watching the team I love.

Agree with every word of this!

What annoyed me most about Saturday was, we only seemed to start playing after they scored their third goal!

Yes, Jay Smith definitely should have come as sub, and IMHO should start ahead of Gutts next game.  Gutts was very poor Saturday i must hasten to add!

Why is it also these days when the other team has a corner, we leave no one up?  We get everyone back!  Why??
This is so negative!!!

Still for me, Hammell and Francis are very poor defensively, and (i'll say it again) poor signings by Tilly for this level of football.  Yes Francis scored, but anyone could have put that one away Inc Paynter.

Sodje must start ahead of Clarke next game too!

The sub's were baffling beyond extreme, why no Moussa up front?  He puts Francis there instead, which i thought was a ludicrous decision.  

Fraid Tilly and Brush must take the blame for this poor start to the season.  No loan players, poor signings, bad tactics!   The pair of them have just not progressed to the CCC.

Wayne Gray would have been a nice option this season (who incidentally had a great game coming off the bench for Yeovil on Saturday), but oh no, they go and release him!

Why is it Tilly (on BBC Essex after the game) harps on again about 'we'll only bring loan players in if they are better than what we've got'  This is unreal!  The squad we have will take us down, and is just not good enough for the championship.

Also, the texts on BBC Essex make me laugh!  Calls to drop Flavs and bring Collis in!  Wake up people!  Flavs is not the problem, if it wasn't for him we'd lose these games by much bigger margins!

This will be one long season!  Something needs to be done.

Has Tilly taken us as far as he can?  Would a manager with a better tactical awareness suit us?  After saturdays shambles. id have to say yes!  Saturday's game was a must win game IMHO, against a poor Ipswich side and at home, we blew it big time!

We're going down!

Question for you TTK.

Did you welcome all the summer signings as good prospects and will improve our squad?

 

[Richard_Cadette]

I dont think it matters if we welcomed the signings in the summer or not CS, it matters what they are doing on the pitch now.

I knew a bit about Francis when we signed him and was quite excited by the prospect. I didnt know much about Hammell, but as bigger and better teams than us were supposedly interested, I was very optimistic about him too.

The cold stark reality is, however, that neither are performing to the standard that is required for this level. Thats not to say they should be singled out, there are very few who can escape the unfortunate tag at the moment, but it is down to the manager, coaching staff and scouting staff to sign players who are better than we currently have at our disposal and will do a job for us at the level we will be playing in.

It is patently obvious that neither signing will be good enough for this level, and neither are an improvement on what we had last season.

 

[canveyshrimper]

I think it is relevant about how all the new signings were welcomed. However I do agree with your point about it is what the players do on the pitch that matters.

It is a fact that most on here stated that Francis & Hammell would be miles better than Jupp & Wilson. I am quite happy to say that I thought this. But these were not the only two signings, JCR, Ricketts, Paynter, Clarke, Harrold, Collis & Hooper have all been added to the squad.

I agree completely that we have not been performing well enough, and to me the writing was on the wall as long ago as QPR, when we lost badly to a quite poor side. I also agree that is down to all the management team to scout for the best possible players available, which with respect is what they did in the summer, and Tilson was backed by Ron Martin with a lot of money by SUFC standards, but a pittance compared with most of our rivals.

I am a bit surprised that we have not got a loan or two in, but the rub here is wages. I agree with Tilly when he says that he will only get players in who will be better than what we have. However does Ron agree to loan signing(s) that may smash the clubs wage structure for what will only be a short term fix? I don't see there being wholesale changes to the squad in January, unless Freddy is sold for a massive sum, and that money is immediately ploughed back into the playing side.

As I am forever the optimist I hope we and results improve nearer to the level of when we started the season, and we can climb at leats one place in the table for the end of the season. Survival is after all the main aim of the season, anyone who thought we would be challenging higher up the table in my view needs their bumps read.

 

[Hong Kong Blue]

If you want a game where the writing was on the wall, look at Palace. We played close to our best and still lost by two clear goals to an average team - from there on the players have looked as if they have doubted whether they deserve to be playing at this level.

The argument about loan signings is that it is short term planning. You may be able to bring someone in to do a job for 3 months, but what about after that 3 month period?

 

[Richard_Cadette]

Quote[/b] (Hong Kong Blue @ Oct. 24 2006,13:16)]If you want a game where the writing was on the wall, look at Palace. We played close to our best and still lost by two clear goals to an average team - from there on the players have looked as if they have doubted whether they deserve to be playing at this level.

The argument about loan signings is that it is short term planning. You may be able to bring someone in to do a job for 3 months, but what about after that 3 month period?

It may well be a short term fix, but if you have someone in for three months and they do enough to help the team achieve enough points to stay up, then that will be worthwhile.

You then maybe able to build on the renewed confidence that a winning streak brings, hence making the current players you have raise there game by 10-15%.

At this present moment in time, we either bring in a couple of loan signings to try and improve things on the pitch, or hope the current set of players play themselves back in to form.

I know which route I would prefer right now!

 

[Jonny_Stokes]

You can always sign people on loan with a view to a permanent move....

 

[Interpol Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (Richard_Cadette @ Oct. 24 2006,13:26)]It may well be a short term fix, but if you have someone in for three months and they do enough to help the team achieve enough points to stay up, then that will be worthwhile.

You then maybe able to build on the renewed confidence that a winning streak brings, hence making the current players you have raise there game by 10-15%.

At this present moment in time, we either bring in a couple of loan signings to try and improve things on the pitch, or hope the current set of players play themselves back in to form.

I know which route I would prefer right now!

Exactly the point I raised 2 or 3 weeks back.
Take somebody like Derek Riordan for example.
He has come out & said he is desperate for 1st team football (probably at Championship level) to remind Strachan why he signed him.
Put this guy in a team for 3 months with a resurgent Eastwood where they can complement each other and we again have a potent strike force. This could be the difference come May between finishing 18th & 22nd.

 

[Beefy]

Theres so, so, so many things about this thread which are annoying me. The nonsense about Wilson and Jupp being better than Hammell and Francis takes the biscuit though.

It was a commonly-held opinion on here last season that Hunt was a better defender than Jupp, yet his performance on saturday was worse than anything that Simon Francis has turned in this season - even worse than his horror-show at Derby. Thats not Hunt's fault of course because he's been shown up by far superior opposition, the same as most of our squad have been.

The negativity around here is like a cancer and this is becoming a very unpleasant place to spend free-time at. No one enjoys watching a performance like saturday's, but screaming at the players - who are playing at the absolute limits of their ability, doesn't achieve anything. If we're to stand any chance this season everyone at the club, from the management to the players to the tea-lady to the fans, have to stand together and moaning everytime we get outclassed by a massive club full of ex-Premiership players isn't going to achieve anything.

When the new ground is built and we're averaging 15,000 fans every other week then we can be looking for something better than survival, but that day is a very long way off. Until then we have to accept that we're the second smallest side in this league that we're punching way above our weight and that every rational argument says that we're going to struggle to stay up this season.

Losing 3-1 at home to Ipswich is bitterly disappointing, its upsetting and its tempting to get very angry about it. But one thing it isn't is absolutely disgraceful.

 

[MC BLUES]

You usually talk a lot of sense Beefy but you know as well as me that this board is really no different to any other football fans site (rivals being the exception maybe) in that comments and opinions do differ and will naturally reflect the fortunes on the pitch.

As for Hammell, well I may be one of those responsible for annoying you so much. I am also annoyed at hearing he is twice the player of Wilson and then reading from some posters that anyone who thinks otherwise is either 'on something' or insane.

It is all about opinion isn't it? The only thing that most of us have in common is that we all love the same team.

I know we should all be more realistic and accept we are now in with the big boys, but I have to say that conceding 3 goals in each of our last 4 home games, not to mention the 3 we let in at Derby has proved a bitter pill to swallow.

If I am honest, perhaps I thought we would compete at this level just a little bit better than we have so far. Therein lies the natural disappointment.

Just like most of us though, my support will continue and my hopes will never fade.

 

[Jam_Man]

I appreciate people can have different opinions but cant understand anyone looking at Hammell and Wilson and thinking there is any comparison.

If Wilson was getting skinned in League Two it goes without saying he will get skinned in the Championship.

Hammell may not be perfect but he is easily a better player than Che.

 

[MC BLUES]

Quote[/b] (Jam_Man @ Oct. 24 2006,15:24)]I appreciate people can have different opinions but cant understand anyone looking at Hammell and Wilson and thinking there is any comparison.

If Wilson was getting skinned in League Two it goes without saying he will get skinned in the Championship.

Hammell may not be perfect but he is easily a better player than Che.

I will say what I have only said on here before for one last time concerning Wilson and Hammell, that I promise you!

I accept that Hammell catches the eye going forward. He does look busy and seems to possess a fair bit of quality in this connection. He also has very useful dead ball delivery skills. However, defensively he is found wanting. He is poor in making a tackle, and that is only evident when he is in any position where he can attempt to do so, which is not often, as so many times he is caught missing.

It has been suggested that this is Tilly's new policy, to get the full backs racing forward more. All looks and sounds good if they have the judgement and pace to do this at the right time. I think our full backs have been reckless to some extent in recent games and the positioning discipline has been missing.

Now I have NEVER said that I think Che Wilson is either better than Hammell OR that he is good enough for this level. What I have said is he was considered good enough by the manager to have been a virtual regular in two back to back winning teams. Whatever we may think, Steve Tilson had faith in him and said as much towards the end of the last campaign.

My point then is this. None of us know if he can do a decent job in this league. We have no idea if he could do at least as well as Hammell in our team at this time. We dont know as he has never had a chance. What we do know is that we are struggling at the moment and leaking too many goals in almost every game we play.

 

[Jam_Man]

No, without seeing him play we dont know for certain.

However based on the fact he was our weakest link the past two seasons and Tilson replaced him as soon as we were promoted is enough for me to be happy for Che to be back up only.

 

[Murkey_Mouse]

Quote[/b] ]I know we should all be more realistic and accept we are now in with the big boys, but I have to say that conceding 3 goals in each of our last 4 home games, not to mention the 3 we let in at Derby has proved a bitter pill to swallow.

If I am honest, perhaps I thought we would compete at this level just a little bit better than we have so far. Therein lies the natural disappointment.

When you see Col******r doing better than us with a weaker sqaud than last season and get crowds of 5000+ or less, it just taking the p***, that why the SUFC fans feeling p****d off the way we are playing at the moment.

 

[Hong Kong Blue]

Quote[/b] (Murkey_Mouse @ Oct. 24 2006,17:12)]

Quote[/b] ]I know we should all be more realistic and accept we are now in with the big boys, but I have to say that conceding 3 goals in each of our last 4 home games, not to mention the 3 we let in at Derby has proved a bitter pill to swallow.

If I am honest, perhaps I thought we would compete at this level just a little bit better than we have so far. Therein lies the natural disappointment.

When you see Col******r doing better than us with a weaker sqaud than last season and get crowds of 5000+ or less, it just taking the p***, that why the SUFC fans feeling p****d off the way we are playing at the moment.

I'm sure that is what Leeds and Hull fans are thinking about us.

 

[Southend Elvis]

Quote[/b] (Murkey_Mouse @ Oct. 24 2006,17:12)]

Quote[/b] ]I know we should all be more realistic and accept we are now in with the big boys, but I have to say that conceding 3 goals in each of our last 4 home games, not to mention the 3 we let in at Derby has proved a bitter pill to swallow.

If I am honest, perhaps I thought we would compete at this level just a little bit better than we have so far. Therein lies the natural disappointment.

When you see Col******r doing better than us with a weaker sqaud than last season and get crowds of 5000+ or less, it just taking the p***, that why the SUFC fans feeling p****d off the way we are playing at the moment.

MM this says exactly what I think. If they can do it why can't we.... no more to be said really

 

[Crabby Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (Southend Elvis @ Oct. 24 2006,17:31)]

Quote[/b] (Murkey_Mouse @ Oct. 24 2006,17:12)]

Quote[/b] ]I know we should all be more realistic and accept we are now in with the big boys, but I have to say that conceding 3 goals in each of our last 4 home games, not to mention the 3 we let in at Derby has proved a bitter pill to swallow.

If I am honest, perhaps I thought we would compete at this level just a little bit better than we have so far. Therein lies the natural disappointment.

When you see Col******r doing better than us with a weaker sqaud than last season and get crowds of 5000+ or less, it just taking the p***, that why the SUFC fans feeling p****d off the way we are playing at the moment.

MM this says exactly what I think. If they can do it why can't we.... no more to be said really

Well, maybe one more thing to be said...

like it or not, Col******r had been in league 1 a few seasons longer than us. They had a league 1 side. We had a league 2 side with a few additions that made good. Basically we've stepped up two leagues in two years, whereas Col******r have had time to consolidate in league 1 before going up

 

[Beefy]

Quote[/b] (MC BLUES @ Oct. 24 2006,15:18)]You usually talk a lot of sense Beefy but you know as well as me that this board is really no different to any other football fans site (rivals being the exception maybe) in that comments and opinions do differ and will naturally reflect the fortunes on the pitch.

As for Hammell, well I may be one of those responsible for annoying you so much. I am also annoyed at hearing he is twice the player of Wilson and then reading from some posters that anyone who thinks otherwise is either 'on something' or insane.

It is all about opinion isn't it? The only thing that most of us have in common is that we all love the same team.

I know we should all be more realistic and accept we are now in with the big boys, but I have to say that conceding 3 goals in each of our last 4 home games, not to mention the 3 we let in at Derby has proved a bitter pill to swallow.

If I am honest, perhaps I thought we would compete at this level just a little bit better than we have so far. Therein lies the natural disappointment.

Just like most of us though, my support will continue and my hopes will never fade.

I understand what you're saying. The Hammell/Wilson thing is the straw that broke the camel's back rather than being the main thing that I'm bothered by. This constant scape-goating of players from Paynter to JCR to Clarke to Francis and now to Hammell is just utterly pointless because replacing any of them would almost certainly not result in us going forwards. People are harking back for the likes of Che Wilson, Duncan Jupp, Petts, Wayne Gray and others as if we would be stronger with them in the side. All of the above players had at least as many detractors on here as they did fans and have each found their level, in my opinion.

I like Che Wilson. I'm sure we all like Che Wilson - he's a hard-working guy who always gave us his best and, from what I gather, he's a thoroughly nice chap too. But he's not a very good footballer and was blatently the weakest-link in our side for a long while. Yeah, Tilly might have stuck with him for a long time but I think thats more to do with our inability to sign a suitable replacement (Matty Lockwood) and the fact that Wilson's teammates became very good at covering for his deficiencies. I don't think that Steve Hammell is a God, by any means and the ease at which he was taken apart by Ipswich was alarming at times but Hammell was up against Jamie Peters who has been linked with Chelsea and Man Utd in the past, wheras I remember the likes of Ashley Sestanovic and Jabo Ibehre destorying Wilson for such giants of football as Scarborough and Leyton Orient.

We're all guilty of it at times - I think we're badly missing Mark Bentley, for example - but thats mainly down to our inability to replace him with anyone at all.

I just wonder where this all stops. If those of you who are screaming blue murder were Watford fans would you be screaming for Boothroyd's head? Or at least thinking about it? Theres no point saying that where we were two or three years ago has nothing to do with where we are now because it blatently does. If we win every game we have left this season and get promoted would you be coming on here in 12 months time and making threads saying that its an absolute disgrace that we'd just been done by four goals at home to Arsenal? Or Man City or Fulham for that matter?

We're a lower-league club with lower-league players. That doesn't mean that we have to throw in the towel and I'm confident that we can stay up. But we shouldn't expect to stay up and if we do achieve it then that means that we will have had to out-perform at least two bigger clubs than we are, with bigger grounds, bigger histories and bigger budgets.

 

[Beefy]

Quote[/b] (swanseashrimper @ Oct. 24 2006,17:37)]

Quote[/b] (Southend Elvis @ Oct. 24 2006,17:31)]

Quote[/b] (Murkey_Mouse @ Oct. 24 2006,17:12)]

Quote[/b] ]I know we should all be more realistic and accept we are now in with the big boys, but I have to say that conceding 3 goals in each of our last 4 home games, not to mention the 3 we let in at Derby has proved a bitter pill to swallow.

If I am honest, perhaps I thought we would compete at this level just a little bit better than we have so far. Therein lies the natural disappointment.

When you see Col******r doing better than us with a weaker sqaud than last season and get crowds of 5000+ or less, it just taking the p***, that why the SUFC fans feeling p****d off the way we are playing at the moment.

MM this says exactly what I think. If they can do it why can't we.... no more to be said really

Well, maybe one more thing to be said...

like it or not, Col******r had been in league 1 a few seasons longer than us. They had a league 1 side. We had a league 2 side with a few additions that made good. Basically we've stepped up two leagues in two years, whereas Col******r have had time to consolidate in league 1 before going up

Col******r's startling run of form makes our results look even worse than they are. Theres no way that they'll finish where they are right now though - they'll go through runs like ours - in fact they already have been on one.

 

[BrettieAngell]

To be honest I couldn't really give a f%&k what Col Ewe are doing (except when we are playing them), all I'm worried about is Southend!

 

[C'mon you Blues]

Interesting to see what Sturrock is saying in the Scottish press. He wants to be Hibs manager a post he was offered years ago but turned down. He says he considers himself a success at Sheff W and says his successor will have as many difficulties due to their millions of debt and not having any money to spend. Remember he is an experienced manager who's had some success at Dundee U, St Johnston and Plymouth. I think we all need a reality check. I doubt if there is any manager out there who could do as well (or badly as some would have us believe) than Tilly. I think Ron is unlikely to sack him even if we do go down, which to be thinking after 13 games is a tad early IMHO.