Which justice do you prefer?

[steveo]

Absolutely correct again. Colin Stagg, Barry George and countless others can testify to this.
__________________

Yes but conveniently ignore this as it wouldnt fit in with your

Last Updated: 2:40AM GMT 26 Jan 2007

Nearly 30 convicted killers released from jail over the past 10 years have gone on to kill again, according to Home Office figures released yesterday.

As this thread keeps being referred back to your friend Barry George, I tohught this might be of interest.

In 1980, after a failed attempt to join the Metropolitan Police, George posed as a policeman having obtained false warrant cards. For this he was arrested and taken to court, where he appeared in glam rock clothing and stated his name to be Paul Gadd, a revival of his Gary Glitter fixation[5] and the name under which he was charged. At Kingston Magistrate's Court he was fined £25.[6] In the same year, George was charged and acquitted of indecent assault, but shortly afterwards he was convicted on a similar charge for which he received a suspended three-month sentence.[7]

In 1983 George was convicted at the Old Bailey under the pseudonym of 'Steve Majors' for the attempted rape of a woman in his apartment block and served 23 months of a 33 month sentence.[7] Shortly before this, as was revealed after his arrest for the Dando murder, George had been found attempting to break into Kensington Palace, at that time the home of Diana, Princess of Wales. He had been discovered on one occasion hiding in the grounds wearing a balaclava and carrying a knife, and in possession of a poem he had written to Prince Charles.[4]

In May 1989 George married a Japanese student, Itsuko Toide, in what Ms Toide described as a marriage "of convenience – but nonetheless violent and terrifying."[8] After four months she reported an assault to the police; George was charged, but the case was dropped before coming to court, and the marriage ended.[7]

A psychologist studying Barry George since his arrest for the Dando murder concluded that he was suffering from several different personality disorders, stating that he has an IQ of 75 and suffers from epilepsy.[5]

and Osymandus

This is a minority but will always happen hence why we cannot have the death penalty for a standard sentance (exception circumstances may however stand (a person willfull slaughtering people in full view of the media or several hundred witnesses))

So you would agree to the death sentence in some cases then.

 

[Firestorm]

Preferably by a British court using British law with no interference from a court in Strasbourg.

So called human rights issues appear to be more heavily weighted towards evil doers with each passing day.

That would be the British justice system which abolished the death penalty in the late 50's years before the European courts were even thought of...

 

[MrB]

The only true justice is that administered by a roundhouse kick from Chuck Norris.

 

[number11]

Absolutely correct again. Colin Stagg, Barry George and countless others can testify to this.

I dont really know much about Stagg's circumstances so I wont comment. But regarding Barry George, he wasnt merely pulled off the street for no reason. He has a criminal past which led him being brought into the police's focus.

Id be interested when, if he takes this lie detector test thing to prove his innocence over the Dando killing, what his answer would be to the question 'have you committed and imprisonable offences for which you have not been tried'.

 

[steveo]

According to your methodology if you kill someone you should die, correct?

So if someone is theatening a person you love and the only way you can help them is to kill the attacker, you should die irrespective of what the situation was. This of course is just one example.

And an extremely bad one. Of course you would still stand trial so a jury would decide your ultimate fate.

Im very happy for you that you live in the real world, where innocent people are killed every day while do gooders spend hours trying to work out how these killers can be helped, or how they could have a lenient prison sentence so they can get out and kill again.

 

[Gremlin]

Yes but conveniently ignore this as it wouldnt fit in with your



As this thread keeps being referred back to your friend Barry George, I tohught this might be of interest.




and Osymandus



So you would agree to the death sentence in some cases then.

We all know George had a criminal past. The most telling part of your quote relates to his IQ and illness.

 

[Napster]

Agreed - some of those who work forces, are the same who burn crosses.

But those who die, are justified.

 

[osymandus]

Yes but conveniently ignore this as it wouldnt fit in with your



As this thread keeps being referred back to your friend Barry George, I tohught this might be of interest.




and Osymandus



So you would agree to the death sentence in some cases then.

For crimes trancending what would normally pass through normal courts and beyound our normal maybe (as teh example given).

Your examples for Barry George only show what the psychatrist is quoted as saying below multiple personalitys , also low sense of self and worth (mind you what the hell that has to do with the ridiculious IQ tests i have no idea ???), nothing suggests anything other then psychiatrict help.

As Nitezche said "A socity should be judged on how it treats its sick and infirm for criminals should be treat as such " (paraphrased)
Theres no such thing as an average state of mind , yet to judge people as must be done makes no sense .

 

[MrB]

But those who die, are justified.

**** you I won't do what you tell me.

 

[osymandus]

And an extremely bad one. Of course you would still stand trial so a jury would decide your ultimate fate.

Im very happy for you that you live in the real world, where innocent people are killed every day while do gooders spend hours trying to work out how these killers can be helped, or how they could have a lenient prison sentence so they can get out and kill again.

Unless you understand the problem you cannot prevent it , its petty mindness (and locking into a simplistic view point ) to say a real world is that which you percieve and everyone elses is "wrong" or ill concieved.

Having neither an authortarian stance nor an open liberal minded one will solve this issue

 

[steveo]

Unless you understand the problem you cannot prevent it

But how long can you go on trying to understand the problem and how many more innocent people will have to die while you are doing so?

and Johhny O:

According to your methodology if you kill someone you should die, correct?

No, i didnt say that at all. Obviously each case is tried on its merits. A crime of passion will obviously be viewed differently to say an armed robbery where someone gets shot an dies. However, I see how you made the mistake and completely misunderstood what I said as you live in the real world where mistakes can be and are often made.

 

[osymandus]

But how long can you go on trying to understand the problem and how many more innocent people will have to die while you are doing so?

Ultimatley the only person who can protect you from some one trying to kill you is you . How you choose to do this is down to the individual , since before recorded history we have "murderers" . Im not entirly sure innocent is the right term to be using either . Life can sometimes seem very unfair , that could be deemed as the real world to some yet to others it is a refelction of nature itself. Maybe if people were a little more free to think and be as they are they may not be so inclined to constantly fear a remote possibilty of death. Far more die from disease , famine and even natural causes then are murdered in a daily course of life. Yet we dont stop trying to understand why these occur.

 

[blue scorpion]

That would be the British justice system which abolished the death penalty in the late 50's years before the European courts were even thought of...

Of course I am aware the death penalty was scrapped years ago but I am afraid that I can not see the relevance concerning Abu Hamza being extradited to the USA without the blessing of some quango type authority in Strasbourg.
Incidentally, my original post asked what if it were your daughter.
I do feel that if someone close is the victim then attitudes may well change.

 

[Jedi Shrimper]

And an extremely bad one. Of course you would still stand trial so a jury would decide your ultimate fate.

Im very happy for you that you live in the real world, where innocent people are killed every day while do gooders spend hours trying to work out how these killers can be helped, or how they could have a lenient prison sentence so they can get out and kill again.

Point taken, however, a jury is asked to decide whether you commited the crime. If did kill the person then yes you would be convicted, therefore after being convicted for murder, it is then down to the judge to decide sentancing which is what you appeared to be advocating should be a automatic death sentance.

Yes innocent people die, but if you kill the murderer all you have done is kill that one AFTER they have killed someone. New murderers will still come along. Finding out what drives these people, what makes them do what they do would allow us to PREVENT innocent people from being murdered in the first place.

While i strongly object to the death sentance, i do not advocate letting killers out of prison, and believe a life sentance should mean just that. if you kill a murderer that's it, they do not suffer for what they have done. Take away their freedom until they die of natural causes and they will.

and Johhny O:

No, i didnt say that at all. Obviously each case is tried on its merits. A crime of passion will obviously be viewed differently to say an armed robbery where someone gets shot an dies. However, I see how you made the mistake and completely misunderstood what I said as you live in the real world where mistakes can be and are often made.

Well done Stefan ;)

 

[steveo]

Finding out what drives these people, what makes them do what they do would allow us to PREVENT innocent people from being murdered in the first place.

Do you think that will ever happen though?

if you kill a murderer that's it, they do not suffer for what they have done.

But they wont ever harm anyopne else, and we wont have to pay to keep them alive.

Well done Stefan

Thanks Jonners.

 

[Gremlin]

Incidentally, my original post asked what if it were your daughter.
I do feel that if someone close is the victim then attitudes may well change.

And perhaps may change again if it were "someone close" who was wrongly convicted of the murder.

 

[Perth Bambi]

I think in principle the death penalty could happen in this country, however only in cases where the criminal definately 100% carried out the crime. (unfortunately i think this almost neer can happen)

I amsure people have confessed to murders in the past they did not commit.
And what if you were that judge that sentence someone to death only to find out 5 years later he was wrongly accused. The guilt would wreck the judge's life. And then the arguement could be made that they had a hand in murdering the wrongly convicted.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Most poeple are convicted of murder for a reason. Its not a case of just grabbing someone off the street and framing them, so if they are convicted by the criminal justice system we operate, and if the sentence is death, then yes, they should die.

That's quite a naive statement really, take the case of Tomothy Evans & John Reginald Halliday Christie of 10 Rillington Place.

Evans was convicted & executed for the murder of his wife and young daughter. However it transpired that Christie was the true perpetrator and also a serial killer, rapist & necrophiliac. The probability of two murderers killing by the same method in the same place must me millions to one against. Christie because he was plausible and also a special constable during the war, passed the blame to Evans, who was tried & hung. It wasn't until, some years later that Christie's crimes were discovered, and he was subsequently tried and executed.

Sometime in the mid 60's Evans was granted a posthumous pardon, I sure that helped bring him back to life.

The death penalty will never be bought back in this country and rightly so IMO, however if a sentence for murder/rape/child killing etc is life, then life it should be with no reduction in tariff and no chance of parole.

 

[canveyshrimper]

That would be the British justice system which abolished the death penalty in the late 50's years before the European courts were even thought of...

The death penalty in the UK was actually abolished in 1965 just prior to the trial of Brady & Hindley IIRC. If it had not have been then I am fairly sure the death penalty would have been handed down to them.

 

[steveo]

That's quite a naive statement really, take the case of Tomothy Evans & John Reginald Halliday Christie of 10 Rillington Place.

Yes how naive of me. However you are just picking out individual cases and could probably do so all days, as I could with killers who were let out and killed again.

The death penalty will never be bought back in this country and rightly so IMO

I wonder if its time to ask the zone.