Breaking News Today's Echo - Who owns the Blues? (2010 thread)

[Hotman]

So things that are put down as sundries for example, you are going to believe. They can put any figure down and say the fact is, that is what went on sundries.


If you ask any self employed person, they want an accountant to claim for as much as possible,for example, tools, sundries, petrol and many other expenses. Some things need proof and some don't and are put down under different headers. These figures can be vastly exaggerated to lessen the tax bill for the self employed person. We all know it happens, and some of you are doing it or have done it. The figures are looked at as fact and are usually given the all clear. But it doesn't match the true figures in reality.

If you want to believe the accounts and figures that are unbroken, that is your choice.
I personally will only believe them when they are broken down properly.
I would also like an explanation on the charges from Martin Dawn to S.U.F.C.

It may all turn out to be straight down the line. But in general, if things don't seem or feel right, they usually aren't.

Spot on. Firestorm - you might think £1.9m of sundries is appropriate. For a business of SUFC's size and turnover, I'd expect more like £19,000.

 

[Cricko]

A better way of looking at it is Occam's Razor - in any situation, the simplest explanation is the most likely to be correct. There are any number of complicated conspiracy theories being propounded (some of which, BTW, are worryingly close to libelous) but the simplest explanation is that Ron Martin has bitten off more than he can chew, and has run out of money.

Agreed Tom..I would just like 3 simple questions answered for now...

1...What is the 60k a year management charge for?
2....What are the expenses MD charges to the club including some 95k one year, for.
3....Why is there an unsatisfied CCJ served on SUFC by Deloitte for 72k for work on the new ground.

All 3 of these things we were told were not being charged to SUFC.

 

[Pubey]

That's a lot of tea and coffee!

One area I guess we spend a lot on is postage, printing, etc.

 

[Hotman]

That's a lot of tea and coffee!

One area I guess we spend a lot on is postage, printing, etc.

Which would ordinarily be categorised as such...

 

[A Century United]

Agreed Tom..I would just like 3 simple questions answered for now...

1...What is the 60k a year management charge for?
2....What are the expenses MD charges to the club including some 95k one year, for.
3....Why is there an unsatisfied CCJ served on SUFC by Deloitte for 72k for work on the new ground.

All 3 of these things we were told were not being charged to SUFC.

All fair questions, John - but a fleabite compared to the sort of sums that SUFC need to keep going.

 

[Cricko]

All fair questions, John - but a fleabite compared to the sort of sums that SUFC need to keep going.

But these are just one's we know about so far.

 

[Hotman]

But these are just one's we know about so far.

How about £1.9m of "Sundry Expenses"

 

[Cricko]

How about £1.9m of "Sundry Expenses"

Yep MC or this hidden gem in the 2007 accounts.

Cost Of Sales
Wages............................................. ......3,696,637.............2,531,186
Other expenses.......................................1, 537,346............1,098702

WTF are other expenses?

 

[Hotman]

To be fair that might be the "sundry expenses" that others were referring to. Either way, it's somewhere between £1.4 and £1.8m too much...

 

[A Century United]

Not "Sundry Expenses" - Admin Expenses. And as Firestorm has pointed out ad nauseum, these have stayed pretty much constant since the early '90's - and the Auditor isn't going to have signed them off without knowing what they are, and being satisfied that they are legitimate. Do you honestly think that RM is so dim that if he is ripping off the club, he is going to do it via such an obvious area of the accounts?

 

[Hotman]

Not "Sundry Expenses" - Admin Expenses

Thank god for that clarification, I was getting worried that a large amount was in an unclassified account! That's helped reassure me as to exactly what the expenses are ;)

ACU, let me explain what an audit is. An audit is certification that the accounts show a "true and fair view" of the financial position of the company. An audit is not a thorough review of all expenses and in turn their necessity.

If the "Admin Expenses" were £1.9mil, then the audit has confirmed that the accounts showing £1.9mil is a true and fair view. That doesn't help this debate as to what they are in the slightest!

 

[Cricko]

Not "Sundry Expenses" - Admin Expenses. And as Firestorm has pointed out ad nauseum, these have stayed pretty much constant since the early '90's - and the Auditor isn't going to have signed them off without knowing what they are, and being satisfied that they are legitimate. Do you honestly think that RM is so dim that if he is ripping off the club, he is going to do it via such an obvious area of the accounts?

Yep I do.....I think anywhere he can.....are you still under the opinion he is Whiter than White then?

Let me also make this straight I don't care who run's SUFC as long as we exist but would prefer somebody who is lets say more honest to be at the helm.

I expect I will be the first served with some libel charge.

 

[Hotman]

Not "Sundry Expenses" - Admin Expenses. And as Firestorm has pointed out ad nauseum, these have stayed pretty much constant since the early '90's - and the Auditor isn't going to have signed them off without knowing what they are, and being satisfied that they are legitimate. Do you honestly think that RM is so dim that if he is ripping off the club, he is going to do it via such an obvious area of the accounts?

ps ACU, to clarify what I said a bit more... Put simply, an audit is effectively to stop a company adding or deleting a zero from the end of a number, not to rigorously scrutinise the evidenced activities (although there are tests to substantiate expenses / balance sheet items / processes and their treatment within the accounts). The questions being asked are about the actual activities, and no-one is suggesting that the numbers are incorrect or doubting the auditors job.

 

[Hotman]

But if a company owns real estate that is unencumbered but has little cash, how does that work?

Surely the fact that the assets of the company exceed the debts of the company mean that it is not insolvent? But in my example there are no liquid assets so that bills cannot be met. But they could be met if the assets were liquidated.

When Grant was given a 2.5 year extension out of the blue last year I suspected this was a move to keep the club solvent. Grant is worth his annual contract x 2.5, which might make him worth (at that time) say £130,000 (if he was on £1000 a week). That asset on the balance sheet might keep the club the right side of the line on paper.

Whether the assets as shown in the books are realisable assets at the values stated is another matter.

Let's face it, there are 29 companies apparently and some offshore. It's a minefield and there will be people making damn sure that everything is, on the face of it, as above board as it could be.

And you know what? If RM is trading insolvently, and gets caught out, then he will pay the price. If the club is insolvent, we'll go into liquidation, take a 10 point hit and the club will have new owners appointed by the administrator.

Surely that will appease everyone then, won't it?

SUFC was balance sheet insolvent as at 31 July 2009 by the tune of circa £7m.

A business is considered insolvent if it is balance sheet insolvent, and it cannot pay it's bills as they fall due.

 

[Hotman]

Can anyone provide me with a detailed P+L (not the summary one filed at Companies House)?

Shareholders?

tia x

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

Agreed Tom..I would just like 3 simple questions answered for now...

1...What is the 60k a year management charge for?
2....What are the expenses MD charges to the club including some 95k one year, for.
3....Why is there an unsatisfied CCJ served on SUFC by Deloitte for 72k for work on the new ground.


All 3 of these things we were told were not being charged to SUFC.

These are the type of things that have got my back up Cricko. Surely these should be answered.
If there is a good answer to each of these and not a side step or spin, then we can move on in an upward spiral that Ron said we are on. Hhmmm.

At the end of the day, we love our club, we want it to survive and hopefully be successful. But we know it pulled in enough money over the last 4 seasons or so, and should not be in so much debt and the snowball effect that has happened with the club and players.
Just break down why the club's money went to Ron's other companies for this and that, and those incredibly expensive bloomin sundries.

 

[Hotman]

These are the type of things that have got my back up Cricko. Surely these should be answered.
If there is a good answer to each of these and not a side step or spin, then we can move on in an upward spiral that Ron said we are on. Hhmmm.

At the end of the day, we love our club, we want it to survive and hopefully be successful. But we know it pulled in enough money over the last 4 seasons or so, and should not be in so much debt and the snowball effect that has happened with the club and players.
Just break down why the club's money went to Ron's other companies for this and that, and those incredibly expensive bloomin sundries.

Hopefully a shareholder can share the detailed P+L, so that we can confirm exactly how much has been allocated as either sundry, admin, or other expenses...

 

[jamesmut2000]

Can anyone provide me with a detailed P+L (not the summary one filed at Companies House)?

Shareholders?

tia x

I've got the glossy report and financial statements for 2007 and 2008 if there any good to you???

 

[Hotman]

I've got the glossy report and financial statements for 2007 and 2008 if there any good to you???

would be great if you could scan?

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I have looked at MD's accounts and there is little there .

As for having faith in the accounts, I have looked at these accounts and many other of SUFC accounts and whilst I can see things which are not particular inspiring regarding the state of the clubs finances, i have not seen anything which indicates anything particular "criminal".
Now I am likely to have missed something, I am not a top notch financial wizard, but that said , in all the accounts SUFC have submitted over the years, I can not recall any comments about specific items in the accounts which look dubious and out of keeping with prior years figures (except maybe the aforementioned asset revaluation in 1994) .

To a degree I would like to be wrong, I would like someone to point out something specific I have missed, i would love to see concrete evidence that Ron has embezzled, screwed, raped or whatever is the SZ phrase of the day, the club. I would love to have someone specific to blame and focus my anger on rather than be sitting here with the current opinion that I have that the club I love has been unsustainable for many many years unless i am content with the lower reaches of League 2 every year.

It's all relative, and compared to most of the posts on here you are a financial wizard.

I shouldn't have repped you earlier as I should have saved it for the last paragraph. Absolutely spot on.

I think that is the whole crux of the matter..2 companies sets of accounts at most out of what was it 28?and one of them had little there.

Or you could have a look at 92 league clubs' books and try to find the one that is profitable....

If Ron is the honest man that he proclaims to be, why does he run 29 companies,many of whom are registered in overseas tax havens?.

Because it is a completely legitimate thing to do?

You suspected incorrectly. You cannot revalue intangible assets like that, and certainly not by capitalising ongoing salary. That would be like your employer capitalising your wages over the average life-span of an employee.

I think when they value players it is the players' registration rather than their wages. Remember your employer can't buy or sell you like football clubs do for players.