Tilly's transfer record this season

[GNH]

Quote[/b] (Beefy @ Dec. 05 2006,14:42)]If you look at the players we've signed since we won league One and who they replaced I'd say that almost every one was a significant upgrade.

1)Griemink -> Collis
2)Jupp -> Francis
3)Pettefer -> Clarke
4)Bentley -> McCormack
5)Guttridge -> Reira
6)Smith -> Campbell-Ryce
7)Goater -> Ricketts -> Harrold
8)Gray -> Paynter

I'm sorry but I think you're wrong

1) Both have played very few games so no real difference
2) Jupp may have been worse going forward but he was more solid at the back
3)Pettefer offered a massive work rate and simple passing, Clarke does not
4)Both similar types of player and McCormack is better, agreed
5)Too early to tell
6)Agreed
7)Er.....NO
8)You must be joking right? Wayne offered pace and strength and an outlet upfront, so far I have seen nothing from Paynter

 

[Shrimp in a Kilt]

Quote[/b] (GNH @ Dec. 05 2006,18:36)]

Quote[/b] (Beefy @ Dec. 05 2006,14:42)]If you look at the players we've signed since we won league One and who they replaced I'd say that almost every one was a significant upgrade.

1)Griemink -> Collis
2)Jupp -> Francis
3)Pettefer -> Clarke
4)Bentley -> McCormack
5)Guttridge -> Reira
6)Smith -> Campbell-Ryce
7)Goater -> Ricketts -> Harrold
8)Gray -> Paynter

I'm sorry but I think you're wrong

1) Both have played very few games so no real difference
2) Jupp may have been worse going forward but he was more solid at the back
3)Pettefer offered a massive work rate and simple passing, Clarke does not
4)Both similar types of player and McCormack is better, agreed
5)Too early to tell
6)Agreed
7)Er.....NO
8)You must be joking right? Wayne offered pace and strength and an outlet upfront, so far I have seen nothing from Paynter

7. Agreed, Goater would be very hard to improve on. But nonetheless Harrold impressed a lot in his first couple of appearances, and it is very hard to make a fair judgement on any player since then because of the lack of confidence and therefor poor performance of the whole team.

8. Gray scored three goals for us last season (I think that is right) and isn't making a great impression for Yeovil this. I am sure that we will see more and better from Paynter as time goes on - he was showing signs of coming good just before his hamstring. Would absolutely have Billy over Wayne.

 

[GNH]

He may have only scored 3 goals last season but that will be more than Paynter gets this year! I hope i'm proved wrong but i some how doubt it

But in my view Wayne's all round game is far superior to Billy's from what i have seen so far

 

[Beefy]

Quote[/b] (GNH @ Dec. 05 2006,18:36)]

Quote[/b] (Beefy @ Dec. 05 2006,14:42)]If you look at the players we've signed since we won league One and who they replaced I'd say that almost every one was a significant upgrade.

1)Griemink -> Collis
2)Jupp -> Francis
3)Pettefer -> Clarke
4)Bentley -> McCormack
5)Guttridge -> Reira
6)Smith -> Campbell-Ryce
7)Goater -> Ricketts -> Harrold
8)Gray -> Paynter

I'm sorry but I think you're wrong

1) Both have played very few games so no real difference
2) Jupp may have been worse going forward but he was more solid at the back
3)Pettefer offered a massive work rate and simple passing, Clarke does not
4)Both similar types of player and McCormack is better, agreed
5)Too early to tell
6)Agreed
7)Er.....NO
8)You must be joking right? Wayne offered pace and strength and an outlet upfront, so far I have seen nothing from Paynter

1) Agreed, this one doesn't really matter and its hard to tell either way.
2) Jupp wasn't solid at the back at all. People on here used to get all over his defensive abilities (against far inferior opposition) and call for Lewis Hunt to play there instead. Of the three right-backs we've had over the last two years I think that Francis is definately the best even if he's far from being the finished product.
3) Theres nothing wrong with Clarke's workrate. He was very highly rated in League One where Petts couldn't get a game. The fact that no league side wanted to know in the summer says it all.
4) Agreed. I think we've missed Bentley though and he's the one player we let go (I know it was his choice) who I wish we'd kept on.
5) Agreed.
6) Agreed
7) To clarify, I'm not saying that Harrold is an improvement on Goater, obviously. Ricketts would have been like for like with Goater though and thats the one that you've got to judge Tilly on. But its not like we chose to get rid of Goater, he chose to retire. FWIW, I suspect that Lee Bradbury was brought in as Goat's replacement from day one anyway.
8) I think we're going to have to disagree here. I think Wayne Gray is hopeless and offered nothing to us as a team beyond being able to take a good penalty. Paynter has been far from brilliant too, obviously, but I suspect he's got far more to his game that gray does.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Quote[/b] (Beefy @ Dec. 05 2006,18:56)]8) I think we're going to have to disagree here. I think Wayne Gray is hopeless and offered nothing to us as a team beyond being able to take a good penalty. Paynter has been far from brilliant too, obviously, but I suspect he's got far more to his game that gray does.

How many goals did he tee up for Freddy though? Loads!

 

[fbm]

As much as we all love the Goat, are we not guilty of selective memories?

I remember a distinct period in the middle of last season when he was only half fit and there were loads of cries on here that he was an aged waste of space. I seem to remember that Wiggy was the biggest culprit!

Don't get me wrong, I think he was great, but there were plenty who didn't and who were fairly vocal in that opinion.

 

[silentshrimper]

There not good enough though! I would have liked to see gray bentley and jupp stay, they were a big part of our team and did there job like the players that are still here, more should have been done to secure there services(i.e better wages)

 

[Beefy]

Quote[/b] (Spaceman Spiff @ Dec. 05 2006,18:59)]

Quote[/b] (Beefy @ Dec. 05 2006,18:56)]8) I think we're going to have to disagree here. I think Wayne Gray is hopeless and offered nothing to us as a team beyond being able to take a good penalty. Paynter has been far from brilliant too, obviously, but I suspect he's got far more to his game that gray does.

How many goals did he tee up for Freddy though? Loads!

I don't remember many at all to be honest. Two of Fred's debut goals and, I think, one in the LDV Semi against Bristol Rovers, and I don't remember many more.

A big part of my problem with Wayne (other than the crap attitude whenever he got a chance last season and the complete lack of ability to do anything other than just run quickly which showed in his appalling home league goalscoring record), was his inability to come up with any understanding with Eastwood. He used to wander off to the wings and leave Freddy isolated in the middle.

 

[Shrimp in a Kilt]

Quote[/b] (GNH @ Dec. 05 2006,18:50)]He may have only scored 3 goals last season but that will be more than Paynter gets this year! I hope i'm proved wrong but i some how doubt it

But in my view Wayne's all round game is far superior to Billy's from what i have seen so far

I just don't think it is fair to judge him when the team haven't been playing well, and he has only had a handful of (sporadic) appearances. Sadly, too many in the stadium have already chosen to boo him off and heckle him which is hardly going to improve his chances of making it here.

 

[Beefy]

Quote[/b] (fbm @ Dec. 05 2006,19:05)]As much as we all love the Goat, are we not guilty of selective memories?

I remember a distinct period in the middle of last season when he was only half fit and there were loads of cries on here that he was an aged waste of space. I seem to remember that Wiggy was the biggest culprit!

Don't get me wrong, I think he was great, but there were plenty who didn't and who were fairly vocal in that opinion.

Very true. I remember being almost embarrassed by the amount of stick that he took away at Brentford on that dark Valentines evening.

 

[KrustyTheKray]

Quote[/b] (Beefy @ Dec. 05 2006,14:42)]Theres been a lot of stuff written on here about how Tilly's transfer record this season is woeful and that he's actually weakened the side. I think both statements are pretty wide of the mark.

If you look at the players we've signed since we won league One and who they replaced I'd say that almost every one was a significant upgrade.

Griemink -> Collis
Jupp -> Francis
Pettefer -> Clarke
Bentley -> McCormack
Guttridge -> Reira
Smith -> Campbell-Ryce
Goater -> Ricketts -> Harrold
Gray -> Paynter

Its early days here for Reira but I doubt he could be any less effective than Guttridge. Ricketts, obviously, didn't work as the Goater-replacement, but how much of that is Tilly's fault? He took the gamble and it didn't pay off but at least we bailed out when we did. Every one else there is a more talented player than the one that he replaced, including Paynter and Clarke.

Not to mention, of course, that we also signed Hammell and Hooper who have supplemented the squad and have proven to be far more effective than the players that they pushed down the pecking order (Wilson and Lawson).

Now, obviously, theres major question marks about whether some of those signed this season (Harrold, Paynter, Clarke) are good enough for this level, and thats fair comment. But if you pay peanuts you get monkeys, and sadly we pay peanuts. We weren't able to compete on a level playing field with other clubs at this level in terms of finances so we've ended up with signings that we could afford. Thats not really Tilly's fault either. He's spent what money he has had and he has strenghtened the squad. FWIW, I think that Paynter and Clarke could well go on to be top players at this football club, even if it won't be this season.

Griemink -> Collis This one i agree with, Bart was just shocking, but we haven't really seen enough of Collis to judge him. He can't be any worse than Bart!

Jupp -> Francis Strongle disagree with this one. Jupp was a better defender. Francis is one of the worst ever signings by Tilly in my eyes.

Pettefer -> Clarke

? Both much of a muchness, i'd say Clarke was better.

Bentley -> McCormack Durys out on this on i feel

Guttridge -> Reira How can we judge Reira on a fleeting subs appearance at Col Ewe.

Smith -> Campbell-Ryce Totally different positions, you cant compare can you! Smith was a blinding player though, where JCR is just a headless chicken in my eyes with no final product.

Goater -> Ricketts -> Harrold How can you compare these to the Goat? Both Ricketts and Harrold were very poor signings for this league.

Gray -> Paynter Gray anyday! Paynter was the biggest ever waste of £200k i've ever seen. A harrods version of Greame Jones springs to mind. Paynter was a total panic buy, and Hull fans must have been ****ing their pants the day we shelled out so much money for him!


As a whole, this team we have for the Championship is alot worse than the team we had last season.

 

[fbm]

Quote[/b] (TonyTheKray @ Dec. 05 2006,21:56)]

Griemink -> Collis   This one i agree with, Bart was just shocking, but we haven't really seen enough of Collis to judge him.  He can't be any worse than Bart!'

Bart had his moments but he wasn't THAT bad!  Emberson, Prudhoe and Capleton were shocking.  And until Bart arrived, Flahavan wasn't all that.  But I agree we can't judge Collis yet.

Jupp -> Francis  Strongle disagree with this one.  Jupp was a better defender.  Francis is one of the worst ever signings by Tilly in my eyes.

Well, we're all entitled to our opinions but whilst Francis is clearly not the finished article he is much better equipped than Jupp to deal with this league.  Jupp may have been a better defender in his prime but we certainly didn't have him at that.  Francis may turn out to be a very, very good player.

Pettefer -> Clarke  

?  Both much of a muchness, i'd say Clarke was better.

Clarke was or is better?  Do you know something we don't?  But using your JCR-Smith comparison you cannot compare Clarke and Pettefer because they play in different positions

Bentley -> McCormack   Durys out on this on i feel

I'd probably agree here although McCormacks first touch is miles better, despite the fact that Bentley would be chipping in with a few more goals.  Of the two, in this league, I'd go for McCormack at the moment.

Guttridge -> Reira  How can we judge Reira on a fleeting subs appearance at Col Ewe.

Totally agree and he could turn out to be a waste of space.  He may even never put on a blue shirt again.

Smith -> Campbell-Ryce  Totally different positions, you cant compare can you!  Smith was a blinding player though, where JCR is just a headless chicken in my eyes with no final product.

I think we all agree that Jay Smith before his injury against Cambridge was pure class and the first name on the teamsheet.  But those days are long gone.  And they play in different positions.


Goater -> Ricketts -> Harrold  How can you compare these to the Goat?  Both Ricketts and Harrold were very poor signings for this league.

Ricketts turned out to be but we didn't know that at the time.  You can't possibly say that about Harrold as he's still young and could turn out to be a very good player.

Gray -> Paynter  Gray anyday!  Paynter was the biggest ever waste of £200k i've ever seen.  A harrods version of Greame Jones springs to mind.  Paynter was a total panic buy, and Hull fans must have been ****ing their pants the day we shelled out so much money for him!

Again, we haven't seen enough of Paynter to judge.  He needs to gel with a partner and Freddy is not that person.  In fact, I think that could be Freddy's downfall; the fact that he is so difficult to partner.  He is an individual player.  But if Paynter gets a run in the side and forms a dcent partnership with Hooper or Harrold (or anyone else) I trust you'll eat your words.


As a whole, this team we have for the Championship is alot worse than the team we had last season.

How can you tell?  They have never played in it!

 

[Shrimper2thecore]

If you change Gray -> Hooper, I think you have an arguement

 

[sufcintheprem]

Seriously, please, watch the highlights from the Gillingham game yesterday and the weekend FA cup game to see how Jupp defends.

We're indebted to him for his efforts in getting us two promotions but please don't assume that he would have stepped up to this level comfortably when, from my memory of last year, he struggled to cope then. Are you seriously telling me that Leon McKenzie would have been quiet as a mouse against Jupp? Personally, the prospect of those players meeting gives me the heeby-jeebies.

I can't help but think that when the current team is referenced against last year's team, the former are measured on flaws from their last game while the latter are measured on their positive input over the last two seasons.

Does anyone actually believe that the step up to the Championship hasn't been far greater than the step up to League One?

 

[MC BLUES]

Quote[/b] (sufcintheprem @ Dec. 06 2006,10:39)]Does anyone actually believe that the step up to the Championship hasn't been far greater than the step up to League One?

No, I agree with you, I think it has been a massive jump in class.

I would ask though, does anyone honestly believe that our League One title winning squad would not have amassed at least 12 points in this league at this stage?

 

[Jam_Man]

Based on the fact this team is better Id say no.

If we had been bottom of the league with no new signings people would have been screaming blue murder too.

Wilson and Jupp would have done no better thant Hammell Francis. Wilson wouldnt have scored the goal against Norwich...

Bentley,Smith and Pettefer would have done exactly what they did last season, warm the bench. (although Id rather Bentley in the middle than Clarke)

Gray would have done no better than any of the strikers we have, although you have to question why we spent £200k on Paynter who has hardly shown himself to be much of an improvement.

This team is without a doubt better than last years, its just still not quite good enough for this level.

I do think that we paid too much for Paynter and Clarke, although I thought Clarke was a great signing at the time.

 

[EastStandBlue]

Quote[/b] (wiggy @ Dec. 05 2006,15:37)]

Quote[/b] (Beefy @ Dec. 05 2006,14:42)]Theres been a lot of stuff written on here about how Tilly's transfer record this season is woeful and that he's actually weakened the side. I think both statements are pretty wide of the mark.

If you look at the players we've signed since we won league One and who they replaced I'd say that almost every one was a significant upgrade.

Griemink -> Collis
Jupp -> Francis
Pettefer -> Clarke
Bentley -> McCormack
Guttridge -> Reira
Smith -> Campbell-Ryce
Goater -> Ricketts -> Harrold
Gray -> Paynter

Its early days here for Reira but I doubt he could be any less effective than Guttridge. Ricketts, obviously, didn't work as the Goater-replacement, but how much of that is Tilly's fault? He took the gamble and it didn't pay off but at least we bailed out when we did. Every one else there is a more talented player than the one that he replaced, including Paynter and Clarke.

Not to mention, of course, that we also signed Hammell and Hooper who have supplemented the squad and have proven to be far more effective than the players that they pushed down the pecking order (Wilson and Lawson).

Now, obviously, theres major question marks about whether some of those signed this season (Harrold, Paynter, Clarke) are good enough for this level, and thats fair comment. But if you pay peanuts you get monkeys, and sadly we pay peanuts. We weren't able to compete on a level playing field with other clubs at this level in terms of finances so we've ended up with signings that we could afford. Thats not really Tilly's fault either. He's spent what money he has had and he has strenghtened the squad. FWIW, I think that Paynter and Clarke could well go on to be top players at this football club, even if it won't be this season.

I've heard it all now!

Collis, untried handling looks suspect
Francis, Mr inconsistent, one minute looks great, the next all at sea.
Clarke, probably the worst headerer and positional player ever
McCormack, looked ok as sub hasn't shone since, give me Bentley any day
Riera, another crocked in training, don't Tilson tell em to put it all in on the pitch, not Boots and Laces
Smith, more creative ability in one toe than the circus act, major Tilson error and he just won't explain why he never gave him a chance.
Ricketts, Harrold, Paynter, go a long way to find a manager that has signed 3 bigger waste of spaces.

To sum up, as we first thought Steve Tilson has made a complete and utter mess of his signings and departures this year and Beefy needs glasses!

Collis: Handling looks suspect, yet he is untried

Francis: So much better than Jupp both going forward and defensively. Wed be even worse with Juppy at RB
Clarke: Clarke over Petts anyday, theres a reason why hes in the conference and Clarke is highly rated. People seem to forget Clarke has never lived down south before and is still living in a Hotel.
McCormack: Bentley over McCormack?

Both players work box to box, but Bentley just wouldnt be as effective in this league as McCormack, who has a far greater passing range.
Riera: Untried, but Guttridge just hasnt been bothered this season and Riera wouldnt have to do much at all to be an improvement.
Smith: Never the same after the injury. i know its a cliche, but its never truer spoken if not spoken about Jay. JCR would be an excellent player if he crossed the ball more frequently, so much so i'd bet hed be a Premiership starter.
Ricketts, Harrold: I'd agree with you, RIcketts had the potentialbut not the attitude, and i just can't see Harrold as a Championship player. Paynter on the other hand, is in a situation similar to Clarke, and given time to settle into a proper house im sure he'll adapt and start to perform.

 

[Shrimp in a Kilt]

Quote[/b] (MC BLUES @ Dec. 06 2006,10:44)]

Quote[/b] (sufcintheprem @ Dec. 06 2006,10:39)]Does anyone actually believe that the step up to the Championship hasn't been far greater than the step up to League One?

No, I agree with you, I think it has been a massive jump in class.

I would ask though, does anyone honestly believe that our League One title winning squad would not have amassed at least 12 points in this league at this stage?

It's pretty much an imponderable, we will never know. But bear in mind that when the pressure was on at the end of last season, we ammassed one win, two draws and two defeats in our last 5 games - and the win against Bristol City, though very welcome, was against the run of play. When the pressure was on, we seriously underperformed, we looked nervous, our passing game failed us, and we were relying heavily on Freddy to get us out of trouble... sound familiar?

So in my opinion, the team we went up with would have been murdered this season.

 

[Jam_Man]

Quote[/b] (Shrimp in a Kilt @ Dec. 06 2006,12:13)]

Quote[/b] (MC BLUES @ Dec. 06 2006,10:44)]

Quote[/b] (sufcintheprem @ Dec. 06 2006,10:39)]Does anyone actually believe that the step up to the Championship hasn't been far greater than the step up to League One?

No, I agree with you, I think it has been a massive jump in class.

I would ask though, does anyone honestly believe that our League One title winning squad would not have amassed at least 12 points in this league at this stage?

It's pretty much an imponderable, we will never know.  But bear in mind that when the pressure was on at the end of last season, we ammassed one win, two draws and two defeats in our last 5 games - and the win against Bristol City, though very welcome, was against the run of play. When the pressure was on, we seriously underperformed, we looked nervous, our passing game failed us, and we were relying heavily on Freddy to get us out of trouble... sound familiar?

So in my opinion, the team we went up with would have been murdered this season.

Indeed, last years squad did fantastically but there were times, at Christmas and the end of the season we looked very ordinary.

Unfortunately nostalgia, and our current form seems to lead some to believe this team is weaker without looking at the bigger picture.

 

[MC BLUES]

I have to say, I am not suggesting our current squad is weaker, or our previous squad was stronger, I just happen to think there is little difference.

If there is any improvement I think it is marginal and not either a "significant" or "far more effective" level of upgrade.

I understand we will never know, but I do suspect last years squad would have managed to record at least 12 points at this stage.