Post-Match Thread and Ratings Southend United 0-0 Burton

[Clinton Baptiste]

Spot on Yorskhire Blue. How can people complain about Sturrocks football? Look at the stats. We regularly stuck 3 or 4 goals past teams. Goals rained in from all over the pitch. Hall's delivery was unbelievable at times. Every time we had a corner the crowd expected a goal. Mohsni the maverick. Britt and Tomlin tearing teams apart in Luggys final season. Yet people thought Friday night was entertaining?? Brown's solution to needing a goal being to put our worst striker on who has no confidence. Then in the post match interview calls himself a tactically aware manager!

 

[mrsblue]

Spot on Yorskhire Blue. How can people complain about Sturrocks football? Look at the stats. We regularly stuck 3 or 4 goals past teams. Goals rained in from all over the pitch. Hall's delivery was unbelievable at times. Every time we had a corner the crowd expected a goal. Mohsni the maverick. Britt and Tomlin tearing teams apart in Luggys final season. Yet people thought Friday night was entertaining?? Brown's solution to needing a goal being to put our worst striker on who has no confidence. Then in the post match interview calls himself a tactically aware manager!

I thought Sturrock did a fantastic job here and should have been given one more season.

Watching us under Sturrock gave me expectation asI settled into my seat,Mohsni at times was worth the entrance fee alone,Hall's blinding runs with Britt cashing in time and time again.I expected us to score every game and was surprised when we failed.With Phil my expectation is now zero as I don't expect us to score let alone win the game.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I thought Sturrock did a fantastic job here and should have been given one more season.

Watching us under Sturrock gave me expectation asI settled into my seat,Mohsni at times was worth the entrance fee alone,Hall's blinding runs with Britt cashing in time and time again.I expected us to score every game and was surprised when we failed.With Phil my expectation is now zero as I don't expect us to score let alone win the game.

Can't disagree with anything there. Paul Sturrock was a 'safe pair of hands' and I, like you, felt that he deserved one more season. From what I understand his preparation for games was phenomenal, with an enormous amount of time devoted to studying and researching the forthcoming opposition. I wonder what Paul would have achieved this season with the apparent lack of hinderence on and off the pitch. Still believe the Orient JPT area final (Timlin's broken leg) may have cost us promotion that season.................and ultimately, cost Sturrock his job.

 

[EastStandBlue]

Why has 4-4-2 gone out of fashion in football?

That's an interesting point and one that hinges on the influence the Premier League has. I'd say more Premier League clubs play a 4-4-2, or at least some variant of it, more often than most would think or admit to, but then can because they can recruit better, more adaptable players. Van Gaal at United has often played a wide diamond this year and has only reverted to a 3-5-2 because of the lack of fit defenders, Arsenal played a 4-4-2 yesterday against Liverpool and Southampton have played that formation in their impressive start to the season.

The difference is that Premier League clubs have players that are more adaptable and occupy different roles. Van Persie pulls out to the channels, as does Welbeck. Alexis Sanchez can operate behind the front two as much as does on the wing. Rooney often drops deep when out of possession.

Clubs in our position obviously have more limited players, so have to fill these roles with individuals rather than those that can multi-task, for want of a better word. Corr leads the line and works the channels well, but isn't blessed with the pace and/or fitness to consistently beat his man over 90 minutes so Weston, Hurst and Worral have to do that task. The 4-5-1/4-3-3 system we seem to be convinced about is brilliant for this level as it's more flexible than a 4-4-2, which is fairly rigid, and provides the right defensive cover when it flattens.

A formation doesn't govern how attacking or defensive a team is, that's done by the eleven on the pitch and ultimately the one in the dugout. A 4-5-1 could be blistering going forward if at least three of the five in midfield are given licence to support the lone striker, but they have to be given that freedom for it to work. Sturrock achieved a lot of success playing Corr as a lone forward as the midfielders we had were always in support and running onto Corr's flicks.

 

[RobM]

EastStandBlue - problem is we don't have those wide attacking players. Gower/Gray/Ansah type players.

 

[mrsblue]

That's an interesting point and one that hinges on the influence the Premier League has. I'd say more Premier League clubs play a 4-4-2, or at least some variant of it, more often than most would think or admit to, but then can because they can recruit better, more adaptable players. Van Gaal at United has often played a wide diamond this year and has only reverted to a 3-5-2 because of the lack of fit defenders, Arsenal played a 4-4-2 yesterday against Liverpool and Southampton have played that formation in their impressive start to the season.

The difference is that Premier League clubs have players that are more adaptable and occupy different roles. Van Persie pulls out to the channels, as does Welbeck. Alexis Sanchez can operate behind the front two as much as does on the wing. Rooney often drops deep when out of possession.

Clubs in our position obviously have more limited players, so have to fill these roles with individuals rather than those that can multi-task, for want of a better word. Corr leads the line and works the channels well, but isn't blessed with the pace and/or fitness to consistently beat his man over 90 minutes so Weston, Hurst and Worral have to do that task. The 4-5-1/4-3-3 system we seem to be convinced about is brilliant for this level as it's more flexible than a 4-4-2, which is fairly rigid, and provides the right defensive cover when it flattens.

A formation doesn't govern how attacking or defensive a team is, that's done by the eleven on the pitch and ultimately the one in the dugout. A 4-5-1 could be blistering going forward if at least three of the five in midfield are given licence to support the lone striker, but they have to be given that freedom for it to work. Sturrock achieved a lot of success playing Corr as a lone forward as the midfielders we had were always in support and running onto Corr's flicks.

I blame it on That wonderful Spain team which ruled the world which had sublime footballers who were all quick comfortable and had incredible movement.

Harry at QPR plays 442 at home with great success then plays 451 away with great failure.

Too many managers think they have the nous and players to play the 451 system and many simply refuse to admit they are wrong.

 

[onceknownasrab]

A formation doesn't govern how attacking or defensive a team is, that's done by the eleven on the pitch and ultimately the one in the dugout. A 4-5-1 could be blistering going forward if at least three of the five in midfield are given licence to support the lone striker, but they have to be given that freedom for it to work. Sturrock achieved a lot of success playing Corr as a lone forward as the midfielders we had were always in support and running onto Corr's flicks.[/QUOTE]

The 4-5-1 is a perfectly good formation and the midfield can overrun and control against a 4-4-2. The 4-5-1 does, to be effective, need particular personnel. The midfield need a good engine and be able to fulfill the required quota of goals. We have the engine but not the goal return. The goal return required becomes even higher if the striker does not contribute his share.

Our other problem is that we have no plan B. Whereas, at our level, the opposition can chase a game with a constant long ball bombardment, it is ineffectual for us as we have not got the quality up front to reap the reward. If we switch from 4-5-1 to 4-4-2 it merely highlights that we have twice the inability up front.

Our team is a perfectly good and competitive one apart from the attack. That was clear before the season started, clarified very quickly into the season and put into bold and underlined now.

 

[RobM]

Rab - it was clear before last season started!

 

[EastStandBlue]

I blame it on That wonderful Spain team which ruled the world which had sublime footballers who were all quick comfortable and had incredible movement.

Harry at QPR plays 442 at home with great success then plays 451 away with great failure.

Too many managers think they have the nous and players to play the 451 system and many simply refuse to admit they are wrong.

QPR are diabolical away from home because Redknapp is absolutely inept when it comes to setting a team up defensively. He went to Old Trafford with Kranjcar as part of a two-man midfield for crying out loud.

And the games QPR have won at home are all against team they'd be expected to beat if they have any chance of staying up. Villa, Sunderland, West Brom, Leicester and Burnley will all be relegation fodder come March, along with QPR because there's no chance they'll be able to sustain those results against sides who go to Loftus Road in search of three points.

And it's not about having the nous or players to adopt a the 451, it's about assessing the players and capabilities at your disposal and identifying a solution. More often than not the 451/433 Mourinho imported is favoured because it's far more flexible than a 442, 352 or other formations. Rinus Michels said that 433 was the perfect formation as it covers the most space on the pitch, and that's something that a lot of coaches/managers subscribe to.

 

[Supa Shrimpa]

rather than those that can multi-task, for want of a better word.

Males multi-tasking. Whatever next ?? :smile:

 

[mrsblue]

QPR are diabolical away from home because Redknapp is absolutely inept when it comes to setting a team up defensively. He went to Old Trafford with Kranjcar as part of a two-man midfield for crying out loud.

And the games QPR have won at home are all against team they'd be expected to beat if they have any chance of staying up. Villa, Sunderland, West Brom, Leicester and Burnley will all be relegation fodder come March, along with QPR because there's no chance they'll be able to sustain those results against sides who go to Loftus Road in search of three points.

And it's not about having the nous or players to adopt a the 451, it's about assessing the players and capabilities at your disposal and identifying a solution. More often than not the 451/433 Mourinho imported is favoured because it's far more flexible than a 442, 352 or other formations. Rinus Michels said that 433 was the perfect formation as it covers the most space on the pitch, and that's something that a lot of coaches/managers subscribe to.

Chelsea have technically gifted players with pace so these players can adapt to any formation.QPR lack pace virtually all round the team so when they go away Harry tries to flood the midfield and play deep and hopefully Nick one at the other end Imo .If he played them further up the pitch when away the centre backs would be utterly destroyed with the pace in the prem.

 

[Austin the Shrimper]

Been a bit ill over weekend but here is my thoughts from Friday night. Thought we started brightly with some nice passing and a close shot which I'm 100% per cent the keeper parried and should have been a corner. That was the 1st of many awful decisions of the evening. Burton would have had a man off if he got the yellow out in the 1st half. I was watching Barry Corr a lot through the evening and to be honest he never looked to get in a goal scoring position at the right time .. Although he did have a good header saved in the second half.. I really don't think he is one to play the lone striker role.. He needs someone up with him.. And to say Payne is up there with him is a joke cause he was playing much deeper. Maybe at home having Payne behind a front two would work better, maybe as part of a diamond .. I mean it's criminal.. We never even got into there box really, and they were just siting back as we passed it around our 5 midfielders .. Or 6 when Weston came off and we literally had no one up there.
shame it was a game for the taking .. We just didn't have the players to do it

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

4-5-1 would have worked under Tilly when we had Gower, Bailey and er Tommy Black and McCormack streaming forward from midfield, getting ahead of the ball.

In fact 4-5-1 would probably work with our current personnel if we had a manager like Tilly who gave the players confidence to express themselves and licence to attack, or a manager like Barry Fry who just encouraged the midfield (and the full-backs) to attack at every opportunity.

Where it doesn't work, at least from an entertainment perspective, is when no-one breaks forward. When we play players like John White and Adam Thompson at full-back, players who are defence first. It won't work when you tell Leonard he has to sit and can't get forward. It doesn't work when you play workhorses like Atkinson instead of thoroughbreds like Timlin.

4-5-1 is all about the numbers of players who can get forward. Just getting Worrall forward, in "support" of Corr 20 yards away, doesn't cut it.

The crowd are starting to vote with their feet. I've never seen the South Upper so sparse for a league game. I know it's a busy time of the year for people, but we were playing the team in second and this didn't seem to be an issue when we turned Chesterfield over 3-0 in 12/13, lost to Bradford in 11/12 on the Friday before Christmas.

 

[EastStandBlue]

Chelsea have technically gifted players with pace so these players can adapt to any formation.QPR lack pace virtually all round the team so when they go away Harry tries to flood the midfield and play deep and hopefully Nick one at the other end Imo .If he played them further up the pitch when away the centre backs would be utterly destroyed with the pace in the prem.

Why does pace or talent equal adaptability? Being able to play a number of different positions has very little to do with physical or technical attributes, it's about having the wherewithal to comprehend the demands of different positions. The best example is when people think ball-playing centre-halves can do a job in defensive midfield or vice versa. It's not a given at all. I'd say there's not much difference technically between L1/L2 players and low-tier Premier League and Championship players, the differences are far more physical and mental-related.

QPR have plenty of pace in the side. Traore, Phillips, Wright-Phillips, Isla, Hoillet and Vargas are all pacey players. Does Redknapp flood the midfield away from home? Each time I've watched QPR away this year he's had Kranjcar as one of the midfielders, and he's about as mobile as Drewe Broughton these days. And I doubt Redknapp sets them up to play as deep as they do, they just end up getting camped on their own 18-yard box as they lack a ball-winner in midfield and Redknapp doesn't set them up to drive teams back.

 

[mrsblue]

4-5-1 would have worked under Tilly when we had Gower, Bailey and er Tommy Black and McCormack streaming forward from midfield, getting ahead of the ball.

In fact 4-5-1 would probably work with our current personnel if we had a manager like Tilly who gave the players confidence to express themselves and licence to attack, or a manager like Barry Fry who just encouraged the midfield (and the full-backs) to attack at every opportunity.

Where it doesn't work, at least from an entertainment perspective, is when no-one breaks forward. When we play players like John White and Adam Thompson at full-back, players who are defence first. It won't work when you tell Leonard he has to sit and can't get forward. It doesn't work when you play workhorses like Atkinson instead of thoroughbreds like Timlin.

4-5-1 is all about the numbers of players who can get forward. Just getting Worrall forward, in "support" of Corr 20 yards away, doesn't cut it.

The crowd are starting to vote with their feet. I've never seen the South Upper so sparse for a league game. I know it's a busy time of the year for people, but we were playing the team in second and this didn't seem to be an issue when we turned Chesterfield over 3-0 in 12/13, lost to Bradford in 11/12 on the Friday before Christmas.

Yeah agree with this.

We currently play as though most of the players are shackled playing without freedom,Corr Defo needs somebody close to try and feed off his flicks yet Barry is marooned by himself .

It's crazy football which will drive fans away in their droves.

 

[RootsHallRoar]

I thought the ref did pretty well. He certainly didn't fall for all of Burton's cheating like last seasind ref for the play-off semi did. Having said that I think he needed to get his cards out much earlier than he did. How it took until deep into the second half for Small Man Syndrome suffered MacDonald to be shown a yellow I'll never know. It had the desired effect though - curiously the cheating stopped once he was on yellow. Likewise their No 12.

 

[mrsblue]

Why does pace or talent equal adaptability? Being able to play a number of different positions has very little to do with physical or technical attributes, it's about having the wherewithal to comprehend the demands of different positions. The best example is when people think ball-playing centre-halves can do a job in defensive midfield or vice versa. It's not a given at all. I'd say there's not much difference technically between L1/L2 players and low-tier Premier League and Championship players, the differences are far more physical and mental-related.

QPR have plenty of pace in the side. Traore, Phillips, Wright-Phillips, Isla, Hoillet and Vargas are all pacey players. Does Redknapp flood the midfield away from home? Each time I've watched QPR away this year he's had Kranjcar as one of the midfielders, and he's about as mobile as Drewe Broughton these days. And I doubt Redknapp sets them up to play as deep as they do, they just end up getting camped on their own 18-yard box as they lack a ball-winner in midfield and Redknapp doesn't set them up to drive teams back.

Top prem clubs insist their players are very quick hence why the better players go to the big clubs offering the highest money.The Rangers players you mention are not in the same ballpark as the top stars.

Redknapp cannot set them up away because he doesn't have the players hence why at home they do ok.Joey Barton will win the ball but again he lacks the critical pace to drive them forward.

The difference between average footballers is speed of thought,Take Beckham for instance he Imo was decent but never world class but he become what he was due to vision and his incredible striking of the ball.

 

[fbm]

I really do think that people are only remembering the good bits of the past.

I was a Sturrock fan but was bored stupid once when winning 3-0... although we were winning it wasn't entertaining and pretty much everyone said so at the time. However we would tolerate it because we thought we would go up. We didn't. And just before Sturrock left our home form was absolutely abysmal. We beat Chesterfield 3-0 in a cracker on Dec 21st 2012 and then only won 1 more home league game for the rest of the season. This was in amongst the JPT run which clouds the judgement, but really, it was dire, dire, dire. There were only 6 league wins after that and 5 of them were away from home.

Earlier in the thread I think it was Jamesthesuperblue that said we would create chances if a poacher was there. Not sure I agree with that... but a really good striker will make chances or space where others won't... is that what you meant?

Credit where credit is due, when Corr came off and Weston went on, I just prayed we wouldn't revert to crossing the ball in and we didn't; we tried to play the ball on the deck and in doing so created a couple of half chances for Weston.

But let's also give credit to Burton for stopping us playing and being strog in defence. That's how I saw it, a game of two defences. I thought we actually played quite well against a very good and in-form side.

Ratings

Bentley - 7 - Did what was necessary

White - 8 - Excellent game at the back
Coker - 8 - How much stronger did we look with him at LB? A very good return from injury game.
Prosser - 7 - A couple of hairy moments, otherwise ok.
Bolger - 6 - The guy is great in the air and not very good with the ball at his feet. Reminds me of Spencer Prior, as he was like that. He didn't try and do stuff he wasn't great at, he just improved his strengths. Bolger needs to do that too.

Leonard - 6 - Not his usual self.
Atkinson - 7 - Tons of industry, not much creativity
Worrall - 7 - Not as effective as he has been lately
Hurst - 8.5 - MOM for me. Loads of good touches and industry.

Payne - 7 - Started well but could barely get a kick late on.
Corr - 8 - Won and laid off so much. Needs to have someone alongside him though to get the best out of him.

Sub -

Weston - 5 - Oops.

Ref - 6 - Took ages to book anyone and was too lenient early on.

 

[stickyboy]

I was a Sturrock fan but was bored stupid once when winning 3-0

although i agree it wasnt great, rather be bored winning 3-0 than drawing 0-0, plus would take us months to score 3 goals these days

 

[fbm]

although i agree it wasnt great, rather be bored winning 3-0 than drawing 0-0, plus would take us months to score 3 goals these days

Well quite, and that's what we say now, but not many people were saying it back then when it was happening.

Let's face it, we won't be happy unless we are dominating games, thrashing teams and getting promoted.