shafted

[Yorkshire Blue]

I doubt that either....I think he has borrowed all on the basis of the big picture with FF and Sainsbury's..

This is funding that wasn't available to SUFC without RM.

And without that funding we'd have been down the pan a lot earlier.

 

[Cricko]

What exactly are the club's failings? If you take RM at his word he's pumped money into the club, not the other way round. We don't pay rent at Roots Hall and he said the club haven't paid a penny of the cost of getting planning permission at Fossetts Farm.
We have - in League One terms - good support

So why are we alone facing being liquidated in 9 days times? Why are we the only League One team that can't pay its players. Why are we - and not Orient, Colchester, Yeovil, Hartlepool etc etc- a financial basketcase

Are we the only League One that doesn't have a millionaire sugar daddy? Or is there another reason?

I love this quote that comes out every now and again...baring in mind RM owns the club and the ground etc etc ..what was he to do write a chq to himself when there is not any monies about in the first place. How can you charge yourself and expect a payment when you are both skint?

 

[Jam_Man]

What exactly are the club's failings? If you take RM at his word he's pumped money into the club, not the other way round. We don't pay rent at Roots Hall and he said the club haven't paid a penny of the cost of getting planning permission at Fossetts Farm.
We have - in League One terms - good support

So why are we alone facing being liquidated in 9 days times? Why are we the only League One team that can't pay its players. Why are we - and not Orient, Colchester, Yeovil, Hartlepool etc etc- a financial basketcase

Are we the only League One that doesn't have a millionaire sugar daddy? Or is there another reason?

Colchester are financed by a sugar daddy....

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

What exactly are the club's failings?

Look at the accounts. It is losing money.

If you take RM at his word he's pumped money into the club, not the other way round. We don't pay rent at Roots Hall and he said the club haven't paid a penny of the cost of getting planning permission at Fossetts Farm.
We have - in League One terms - good support

Not as good as support as Leeds or Southampton, who have both been through the same thing we are going through despite crowds and incomes that dwarf ours.

So why are we alone facing being liquidated in 9 days times? Why are we the only League One team that can't pay its players. Why are we - and not Orient, Colchester, Yeovil, Hartlepool etc etc- a financial basketcase

We're not alone. There are plenty of other clubs who have gone through the same thing we have. Leeds and Southampton who I've already mentioned then there is Cardiff, Stockport, Luton, Palace, Bradford, Notts County, Exeter, QPR, Bournemouth, Rotherham, Portsmouth, Cambridge, Chester, Huddersfield, Leicester, Telford, Watford etc etc. Some clubs bigger than us, some clubs smaller than us, but all in or have been in the same sort of financial mess that we find ourselves in.

We may be at a different stage of the cycle to other teams, but it's not just us.

 

[Beefy]

I am lost as to how you think RM or his companies have pumped any monies at all into the club?

Where do you think the funds have come to cover the £2m loss last year and the one the year before?

 

[weststander]

I love this quote that comes out every now and again...baring in mind RM owns the club and the ground etc etc ..what was he to do write a chq to himself when there is not any monies about in the first place. How can you charge yourself and expect a payment when you are both skint?

Yes Ron owns the club and the ground now, but, you have to remember that when the club was wrestled from the hands of Jobson that we were so far in debt that the 'consortium' of RM AND Delancy bought the ground and the training ground for a little over £4.5million to clear debts at the time. We then had an agreement that we would be rent free for a couple of years and then we would have to pay RM AND Delancy £400k per year for the ground and £62k for the training ground. Therefore we in effect owed RM AND Delancy the money which i truly believe they thought would be paid. Unfortunately the club haemorraghed so much money that there was never enough to pay the rent which is why Delancy wanted out as they realised that theyd never get any money from the club and RM was able to buy the club and stadium quite cheaply.
As for charging himself the rent money, this will show as a debt in Ron's company books (although Ron has said it is written off it is still a debt it is just regarded as unrecoverable we are just not being chased for it) in case of us going into administration and that way he is by far the biggest creditor of the club and he would then accept 1p in the £1 and HMRC would be shafted big time or they would have been had Ron not come up with the £2.1million a couple of months ago.
RM knows what he is doing and wont put his potential huge profits in FF in jeopardy for £200k, it will be paid, we will be relegated and Tilly will be asked to do what he did first time around in assembling a squad for a pittance to get us out of League 2, all he has to do is find another Freddy Eastwood.

 

[A Century United]

Look at the accounts. It is losing money.



Not as good as support as Leeds or Southampton, who have both been through the same thing we are going through despite crowds and incomes that dwarf ours.



We're not alone. There are plenty of other clubs who have gone through the same thing we have. Leeds and Southampton who I've already mentioned then there is Cardiff, Stockport, Luton, Palace, Bradford, Notts County, Exeter, QPR, Bournemouth, Rotherham, Portsmouth, Cambridge, Chester, Huddersfield, Leicester, Telford, Watford etc etc. Some clubs bigger than us, some clubs smaller than us, but all in or have been in the same sort of financial mess that we find ourselves in.

We may be at a different stage of the cycle to other teams, but it's not just us.

Swindon fans were emailing us begging for help not too long ago until their particular "Consortium" rode to the rescue.

 

[CC51DAS]

Where do you think the funds have come to cover the £2m loss last year and the one the year before?

Beefy, I am not going to say either of you are right or wrong. All I would say is that in my experience accountants are bloody clever people and I believe there is such a thing as 'creative accounting'.

Firestorm is probably one of the few on here to be able to professionally comment on the accounts over the years and he has previously said that the club was loss making and relied on injections. However, despite all his 'detective work', I believe he still does not know the whole picture - does anyone other than RM and his accountants?

IIRC, some £1.9 million was used towards the unexpected cost of revised stadium plans and this came from the SUFC P+L, rather than the RHL one. Maybe Firestorm can confirm this if he has a moment. If this is correct, it seems to me that RM's plan was to use the taxman to fund these extraordinary costs until the stadium got the funding and then pay the taxman back at a later date. But what it appears to be to me and what is the reality could well be two completely different things.

Ultimately, what I don't like is the lack of transparency and I am disappointed that the Q+A session did not shed more light on these matters.

 

[CocklesShrimps&Whiteweed]

Let's think how this rape analogy would work.

I think it would be a gang bang, because there is a group element to it with RM's group companies.

Looking at our group structure it is definitely RM's companies on top.

RM's companies have then pumped their liquidity into SUFC.

Where it falls down is on the issue of consent. The pumping of RM's liquidity into the club was done with the consent of the club, who actually welcomed it. It's not statutory rape because the club was nearly 100 years old.

Where the fans started complaining is when having pumped his load in, RM then withdraws because he's pumped everything in, leaving his financial **** all withered and small. The club then feels ashamed at being such a slag and so starts crying rape to put the blame elsewhere and cover up their own failings.

So in conclusion, he hasn't raped the club, he's merely ****ed the club, but the club was no virgin, it had already been ****ed before RM entered the scene......

Hope this helps

That's some picture you paint.

 

[Beefy]

Beefy, I am not going to say either of you are right or wrong. All I would say is that in my experience accountants are bloody clever people and I believe there is such a thing as 'creative accounting'.

Firestorm is probably one of the few on here to be able to professionally comment on the accounts over the years and he has previously said that the club was loss making and relied on injections. However, despite all his 'detective work', I believe he still does not know the whole picture - does anyone other than RM and his accountants?

IIRC, some £1.9 million was used towards the unexpected cost of revised stadium plans and this came from the SUFC P+L, rather than the RHL one. Maybe Firestorm can confirm this if he has a moment. If this is correct, it seems to me that RM's plan was to use the taxman to fund these extraordinary costs until the stadium got the funding and then pay the taxman back at a later date. But what it appears to be to me and what is the reality could well be two completely different things.

Ultimately, what I don't like is the lack of transparency and I am disappointed that the Q+A session did not shed more light on these matters.

That simply isn't true. The Administrative expenses for 2007 were broken down in the finance forum and the figure for 2008 is broadly in line with 2007, which certainly suggests that we haven't suddenly shelled out the best part of £2m for developments on FF. RM has consistently said that the Club hasn't paid a penny for the development and there's nothing in the accounts (which were Independently Audited) which suggests otherwise.

 

[Firestorm]

IIRC, some £1.9 million was used towards the unexpected cost of revised stadium plans and this came from the SUFC P+L, rather than the RHL one. Maybe Firestorm can confirm this if he has a moment. If this is correct,

I can't comment on that , as I don't know.

There is nothing in the accounts relating to 1.9M unexpected stadium plans and certainly no "extraordinary" expenditure shown in the accounts (which are only in the public domain tup to 31/7/08) However I do believe you may be confusing the administrative expenses shown in the accounts (07-08) at 2M as evidence of an extraordinary expense. Unfortunately, as I have mentioned before. This Item in the accounts has been at least 1.4M since 1994 (except for one year where dropped to 880k with what I believe was with "outside assistance" 1998 IIRC)

 

[CC51DAS]

I can't comment on that , as I don't know.

There is nothing in the accounts relating to 1.9M unexpected stadium plans and certainly no "extraordinary" expenditure shown in the accounts (which are only in the public domain tup to 31/7/08) However I do believe you may be confusing the administrative expenses shown in the accounts (07-08) at 2M as evidence of an extraordinary expense. Unfortunately, as I have mentioned before. This Item in the accounts has been at least 1.4M since 1994 (except for one year where dropped to 880k with what I believe was with "outside assistance" 1998 IIRC)

Thanks for confirming that which supports what Beefy was saying. I think the extra cost of revising the planning has come up since the accounts were published. Ultimately though, all sorts of things can get lost under 'administrative expenses' and still get past the auditor, n'est-ce pas ?

 

[superblue24]

Ron Martin needs to be taken out to a field and shown the sunset whilst one of us empties a shotgun into the back of his head (speaking metaphorically)....

In brief, it would seem that he came onboard a sinking ship and managed to rebuild a failing League Two team to the extent that we were able to recruit new players and a fresh Steve Tilson. On the face of it, it looked like he was our knight in shining armour, our hero, our saviour.....No-one ever batted an eyelid when he started systematically absorbing our non-playing assets one by one because we were on the dream rollercoaster of back to back promotions...For us, life was sweet....I still remember being stood there singing "we are the champions" as Wayne Gray had sealed our promotion to the CCC with a solitury goal against Bristol City (a team now ironically in a place we much hoped to level out at!). Anybody who questioned him was told that the consumption of club assets was to finance a much bigger picture in the shape of Fossets Farm. And whilst we were flying high, it became a "side issue" of sorts. We had Freddy, we had JCR, we had Flavs, Barrett, Gower etc....And we were making some pretty high profile signings for a club of our once meagre stature....

Three years later, and the bubble has well and truly burst. We are now left in a mad situation where we have a chairman who says that relegation would be a disaster for the club, yet by not paying his own players, and dragging the club through a tax battle for the relatively small amount of £200K (compared to the circa £2.1M we paid just last November) he has well and truly been his own worst enemy as we are no longer able to attract players to the club, nor make the current ones feel like playing for the badge that has ripped them off on so many pay days now. Even if we were able to attract players, the tax battle he is embroiled in for no more than what looks like an act of bravado and stupidity to me, we couldn't sign them anyway due to the poxy embargo we are still under....Too late now anyway, the loan deadline is long gone!

Then we move onto Tilson. Whilst its clear that Ron Martin has lost faith in him deep down as he refuses to finance any signings, I have to play devils advocate here and admit that we have all commented on how ex-players are now doing so well (a'la Paynter, Harrold, Hoops)....Is it possible that whilst Tilson has a good eye for talent, he is not bringing the best out of his players? Maybe someone else might get more out of the squad we have.....Macca, Moussa, Laurent, Scannell, Francis, Grant, poss Spencer too all have potential to be so much more, and have shown this on the pitch on several occasions....Who actually believes that this team on paper is bad enough to go down when all cylinders are firing? I for one think that the team is at least mid to upper table ability. Tactics have also been discussed on here recently and their negativity at time....We also bemoan Tilsons late substitution decisions, a personal bug bear of mine.

I do not have the answers, and can only comment on what I see\believe. What I do know is that I am utterly disgusted at what we as fans are witnessing at the moment....A TOTAL season capitulation.....And if you ask me, Rons to blame, and Tilson is either not good enough, or has lost heart (probably the latter)....either way we need some sort of change, and pronto. I would prefer Ron gone.

(Ok, so wasn't so "in brief")

 

[OldBlueLady]

Don't forget that, as he reminded us at the Q&A, Ron's had controlling interest in the Club far longer than some of you seem to think. 12 years I think it was, so hardly the turnaround of the last 4 or 5 years that is all that some seem to be remembering. Like it or not, he's in for the long haul.

 

[mfurok]

That simply isn't true. The Administrative expenses for 2007 were broken down in the finance forum and the figure for 2008 is broadly in line with 2007, which certainly suggests that we haven't suddenly shelled out the best part of £2m for developments on FF. RM has consistently said that the Club hasn't paid a penny for the development and there's nothing in the accounts (which were Independently Audited) which suggests otherwise.

Beefy, would you provide a link to this information please.

Thanks.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Beefy, would you provide a link to this information please.

Thanks.

This thread may help you.

 

[Beefy]

That's a good one, but this is the thread I was referring to.

 

[ibwiajwa]

Three years later, and the bubble has well and truly burst. We are now left in a mad situation where we have a chairman who says that relegation would be a disaster for the club, yet by not paying his own players, and dragging the club through a tax battle for the relatively small amount of £200K (compared to the circa £2.1M we paid just last November) he has well and truly been his own worst enemy as we are no longer able to attract players to the club, nor make the current ones feel like playing for the badge that has ripped them off on so many pay days now. Even if we were able to attract players, the tax battle he is embroiled in for no more than what looks like an act of bravado and stupidity to me, we couldn't sign them anyway due to the poxy embargo we are still under....Too late now anyway, the loan deadline is long gone!

Then we move onto Tilson. Whilst its clear that Ron Martin has lost faith in him deep down as he refuses to finance any signings, I have to play devils advocate here and admit that we have all commented on how ex-players are now doing so well (a'la Paynter, Harrold, Hoops)....Is it possible that whilst Tilson has a good eye for talent, he is not bringing the best out of his players? Maybe someone else might get more out of the squad we have.....Macca, Moussa, Laurent, Scannell, Francis, Grant, poss Spencer too all have potential to be so much more, and have shown this on the pitch on several occasions....Who actually believes that this team on paper is bad enough to go down when all cylinders are firing? I for one think that the team is at least mid to upper table ability. Tactics have also been discussed on here recently and their negativity at time....We also bemoan Tilsons late substitution decisions, a personal bug bear of mine.

I do not have the answers, and can only comment on what I see\believe. What I do know is that I am utterly disgusted at what we as fans are witnessing at the moment....A TOTAL season capitulation.....And if you ask me, Rons to blame, and Tilson is either not good enough, or has lost heart (probably the latter)....either way we need some sort of change, and pronto. I would prefer Ron gone.

(Ok, so wasn't so "in brief")

I agree with some of what you've said. However, I have to take issue with the suggestion that the players don't work hard enough because they aren't being paid and that they are performing well below their potential. I don't see it myself. I don't think we are a particularly talented squad at the moment and the lineup has varied unbelievably. We have been vulnerable in defence for a good while now, long before the rumours of players not getting paid. Dervite papered over the cracks last year. Our midfield have lacked creativity all season and have been poor at getting forward and supporting the strikers, never mind scoring themselves. This has been due, in part, to Moussa's catastrophic loss of form (partly recovered before the sending off), the lack of decent loan players, our terrible disciplinary record and the smallest squad in the league that makes it difficult to deal with injuries. Our strike force (if it can be described as such) post-Barnard is the poorest I have seen since I began supporting the club with little pace, poor movement, no understanding of each other and no composure in front of goal. Again, the loan players have simply not delivered. I don't think it's due to lack of desire - I think the boys have tried - it's been due to a lack of ability, a small squad and a lack of money to remedy the problems. Ron Martin's 'false position' rhetoric is utter nonsense.

 

[A Century United]

No-one ever batted an eyelid when he started systematically absorbing our non-playing assets one by one

AS RM owned all our "non-playing assetts" from day one, could you clarify this?