Ron V Vic

[weststander]

The credit crunch has played a major part..No doubt about it,Yet why not start some groundworks..Foundations maybe?I am not suggesting FF should have been complete by now..But come on during those 450 days the club could have done far more than what they have done.

Ok and what happens when the footings and groundwork are done and it has to stop due to lack of finance, you'd then be baying for his blood because he cant finish what he'd started !!!

 

[Bramble'sGoalieGloves]

The only thing I worry from some of these posts is the "I'd rather spend what we don't have, try the Premiership and go out in a blaze of glory than be midtable' brigade...if Southend went under, god help the person that did it but I genuinely believe Ron is not that man.

We're struggling in the current climate (as is every single club, shop, business...across the world) but we're not at crisis point as some may suggest.

Also he was the only one watching the god awful 4 hour long council meeting (along with me their stuck reporting) earlier in the year where all they did was approve FF...that's commitment. Fair play to the bloke

 

[grassroots]

Correction - stadium was sold after Vic left, at a lower value than had previously been given to it. It's not clear how you would value a stadium, though, until you try to do anything else with it.

My summary of things as I see it (and see my very first posts on SZ for more) is Vic came in and saved the club from a much worse fate. He did an incredible job in stabilising the ship and attracted good people such as Webby. He was a true fan. He was the person for winning the war, but not the person to win the peace. He alienated too many people as time went on, but still ran a tight ship despite low attendances. The club's finances were relatively stable. He wanted a move within Southend, but this was opposed by many backward-looking (at the time) fans and a dreadful unhelpful council. Losing patience, he threatened Basildon - I believe it was just a threat directed at the council but he knew the club's future lied away from Roots Hall to go forward - but this backfired badly with the fans. When he had poor health in the last couple of years, finances worsened dramatically - did he take his eye off the ball? We had the worst manager in our history who had no concept of what managing a club like Southend entailed and the club nearly ended up bust.

Cue Ron Martin's companies to come to the rescue. Not a football fan, but interested in the club as a vehicle to make himself some money through the other revenue streams at FF. Has he become a fan now? Stumbled on Tilly by accident and his successes as manager have enabled us to have lucrative results. Despite that, we're losing an eye-watering £2m a year, in big debt, don't own the assets that we once did and are facing a winding up petition. As SBH said, won't know how history will judge him until after he's gone. Will we survive the month/year? Will the stadium ever be built? Will the stadium provide extra revenues for the club or will we simply have extra rent to pay? We don't know yet.

Jeez that's exactly how I see it!!!

I've never gone along with the 'saviour' thing, because the SUFC/ Roots Hall/Boots and Laces package was far too attractive to be ignored by circling developers. Even tho the freehold had been lost by the Club, SUFC was imperative for the developer to maximise the greenfield site....and beyond. The Club's name was even used to virtually blackmail a weak Rochford Council into agreeing that the car park and training pitches could be moved over the boundary, thus freeing up even more land for 'associated development'. What will the club get out of it other than the pleasure of renting a shiny new stadium.........who knows?

 

[blue shrimp]

Jeez that's exactly how I see it!!!

I've never gone along with the 'saviour' thing, because the SUFC/ Roots Hall/Boots and Laces package was far too attractive to be ignored by circling developers. Even tho the freehold had been lost by the Club, SUFC was imperative for the developer to maximise the greenfield site....and beyond. The Club's name was even used to virtually blackmail a weak Rochford Council into agreeing that the car park and training pitches could be moved over the boundary, thus freeing up even more land for 'associated development'. What will the club get out of it other than the pleasure of renting a shiny new stadium.........who knows?

Agreed.

Tumble down Roots Hall and the club should be paying 400k per year in rent...Dread to think the rent at fantastic FF....Starting bid 500k.

 

[Reg Martin]

I've read a lot of negative posts from you, our Morecombe supporting friend, but what exactly is your point, and more importantly your way foreward for our club.

The same question I have asked on here numerous times without any response.
Not a shred of evidence has been produced to back up the claim Ron Martin is swindling the club. The idea that a football club with an average crowd of 8k produces enough money for anyone to siphon off large sums of cash is a joke. No alternative owner has been suggested. The repeated claims against him on here seem to be based entirely on personal animosity.
There may be a case that the financial management of the club under his reign has been poor but until we see how the winding up order is resolved even that is speculation.
As Canvey Shrimper eluded to earlier, the saddest thing about the endless Ron Martin debates is that some Southend fans have talked themselves so far into a corner that unless we do go under they are going to look so foolish that they now give the impression of wishing for the worst to come true.
ps A number of people ask that we wake up and see the truth about Ron Martin but offer no course of action to follow even if we did see things their way.

 

[Lord Football]

Having personally been called "The Hitler Youth" by Vic, seen his unique method handling issues with fans (ie, threatening to remove season tickets, telling us to support someone else) and how he employed coppers from outside the area to "keep the peace" (in essence beat the **** out of everyone) - I'd be voting for Ron.

As I've said before, Vic was a crook with no understanding of charm or PR.
Ron is possibly a crook, but at least he knows how to manage his customers.

 

[* ORM *]

We didn't lose our stadium or our league status with Vic, with Ron time will tell and that time could be sooner rather than later. Personality wise Ron wins hands down but I don't buy all this I love Southend ****. He's a businessmen in it for the long game and the long game is a nice healthy return for a certain amount of risk. Now I may have this wrong but the risk here seems to be no more SUFC. Currently VJ is streets ahead in my book despite the fact that he upset so many.

 

[blue shrimp]

The same question I have asked on here numerous times without any response.
Not a shred of evidence has been produced to back up the claim Ron Martin is swindling the club. The idea that a football club with an average crowd of 8k produces enough money for anyone to siphon off large sums of cash is a joke. No alternative owner has been suggested. The repeated claims against him on here seem to be based entirely on personal animosity.
There may be a case that the financial management of the club under his reign has been poor but until we see how the winding up order is resolved even that is speculation.
As Canvey Shrimper eluded to earlier, the saddest thing about the endless Ron Martin debates is that some Southend fans have talked themselves so far into a corner that unless we do go under they are going to look so foolish that they now give the impression of wishing for the worst to come true.
ps A number of people ask that we wake up and see the truth about Ron Martin but offer no course of action to follow even if we did see things their way.

I ignored Yarmouths snipe as it was not worthy of any reply.

I have never offered evidence only my thoughts and certainly never used the language as you refer "swindled".No personal animosity from me..Never met or spoken to Ron and have little wish to do either,Truth is its Rons club and if he builds a 22k stadium or takes the club down the tubes..Its up to him.

No one will look foolish as we all want the same thing..The club continues.

I have no alternative about somebody else running the club ,I simply offered a different slant than the normal brown nosing which litters many pages of this forum..I pays my money and have my own view/opinion and until FF is built and the clubs debts are erased my mind will not alter.

 

[choggy]

Jobson was a PR disaster, run the club like a dictatorship. Upset everybody and treated the fans with contempt but took us over when we were going to the wall, ran a tight ship money-wise and oversaw our most successful period ever. When Webby left when we were pushing for promotion into the top flight we all blamed Jobson for not backing the manager - Jobson was a pragmatist who thought that the club couldn't afford promotion because the fanbase was too small for a top flight club. With the benefit of hindsight my head says he was probably right but my heart will still never forgive him.

Martin seems to me to be the complete opposite...heavy on PR but hasn't got a grip on the finances. Being a property developer in a credit crunch doesn't help but hedging all your bets on a stadium move which seems more and more a pipe dream is reckless in the extreme although he has got the fans back through the turnstiles and backed his manager when others would have panicked and fired him, something which in this day-and-age is to be commended.

However it'll mean nothing if we go to administration and end up just another Luton. All the PR in the world won't mean a jot and for all his faults the sight of us playing non-league football would make Vic Jobson turn in his grave.

 

[Reg Martin]

I ignored Yarmouths snipe as it was not worthy of any reply.

I have never offered evidence only my thoughts and certainly never used the language as you refer "swindled".No personal animosity from me..Never met or spoken to Ron and have little wish to do either,Truth is its Rons club and if he builds a 22k stadium or takes the club down the tubes..Its up to him.

No one will look foolish as we all want the same thing..The club continues.

I have no alternative about somebody else running the club ,I simply offered a different slant than the normal brown nosing which litters many pages of this forum..I pays my money and have my own view/opinion and until FF is built and the clubs debts are erased my mind will not alter.

As I said earlier in the thread my own view is that the jury is still out on Ron Martin's time in charge which is why, especially without any alternative owner in sight, I will continue to disagree with those who, in my opinion, are over the top in their criticsim of him.
But I will finish by agreeing 100% with your comment.."we all want the same thing..The club continues"

 

[united we stand]

Jobson was a PR disaster, run the club like a dictatorship. Upset everybody and treated the fans with contempt but took us over when we were going to the wall, ran a tight ship money-wise and oversaw our most successful period ever. When Webby left when we were pushing for promotion into the top flight we all blamed Jobson for not backing the manager - Jobson was a pragmatist who thought that the club couldn't afford promotion because the fanbase was too small for a top flight club. With the benefit of hindsight my head says he was probably right but my heart will still never forgive him.

.

I agree with the above. The annoyance is that if Vic had Ron's PR skills then perhaps he would not have ****ed off so many people, and perhaps attendences would have been higher which perhaps would have meant more money which may have meant more backing for Webb etc etc . Who knows where we might me now (yes I know, lots of maybe's)

 

[philtalkin]

However it'll mean nothing if we go to administration and end up just another Luton. All the PR in the world won't mean a jot and for all his faults the sight of us playing non-league football would make Vic Jobson turn in his grave.

Forget PR, do you honestly believe we would be sitting pretty if VJ was still in charge? No chance! The world has changed, along with our wage bill.

Apparently, the average wage bill in the championship is 3 times of those in league 1. If we are unable to increase our attendances to 16,000+ then we will forever bounce between League 1, League 2 or, God forbid, the BSP.

It is very unlikely that a team with an average crowd of less than 12K per week can stay in the Championship (unless they are being bankrolled) for more than 2 or 3 season. Yes it can happen if a good manager comes along and successfully replaces star players, who have moved on to bigger and better teams, every season but eventually they will go down and, like many others; Southend, Grimsby, Luton, Brentford, Bradford, Brighton and Oxford to name a few, might end up heading further South than they expected.

I think some people do not like change and fear if we try to take the club to another level, then we might go bust, but, if we do not try to evolve, that will happen anyway. (Unless I win 100 mill on the lottery).

 

[blue shrimp]

Forget PR, do you honestly believe we would be sitting pretty if VJ was still in charge? No chance! The world has changed, along with our wage bill.

Apparently, the average wage bill in the championship is 3 times of those in league 1. If we are unable to increase our attendances to 16,000+ then we will forever bounce between League 1, League 2 or, God forbid, the BSP.

It is very unlikely that a team with an average crowd of less than 12K per week can stay in the Championship (unless they are being bankrolled) for more than 2 or 3 season. Yes it can happen if a good manager comes along and successfully replaces star players, who have moved on to bigger and better teams, every season but eventually they will go down and, like many others; Southend, Grimsby, Luton, Brentford, Bradford, Brighton and Oxford to name a few, might end up heading further South than they expected.

I think some people do not like change and fear if we try to take the club to another level, then we might go bust, but, if we do not try to evolve, that will happen anyway. (Unless I win 100 mill on the lottery).

I am amazed many think we should be competing at championship level roared on by 16000 crowds,However i am content with having a FOOTBALL CLUB TO WATCH AND SUPPORT!!!If the club ever make it back to the championship and remain in that division will Ron suddenly state "We need prem football to survive"..Surely we should be cutting our cloth accordingly.

 

[philtalkin]

I am amazed many think we should be competing at championship level roared on by 16000 crowds,However i am content with having a FOOTBALL CLUB TO WATCH AND SUPPORT!!!If the club ever make it back to the championship and remain in that division will Ron suddenly state "We need prem football to survive"..Surely we should be cutting our cloth accordingly.

I don't think we should be, but we COULD be.

If every team cut their cloth accordingly then Wigan would still be playing non league football.

Why do so few people have ambition? Do they fear change? Are they risk adverse?

 

[londonblue]

Correction - stadium was sold after Vic left, at a lower value than had previously been given to it. It's not clear how you would value a stadium, though, until you try to do anything else with it.

But you and I know that Vic grossly over-valued Roots Hall and then mortgaged it to the hilt.

My summary of things as I see it (and see my very first posts on SZ for more) is Vic came in and saved the club from a much worse fate. He did an incredible job in stabilising the ship and attracted good people such as Webby. He was a true fan. He was the person for winning the war, but not the person to win the peace. He alienated too many people as time went on, but still ran a tight ship despite low attendances.

He needed to. He was paying himself £100,000 a year from Southend United. He also had a huge legal bill to pay. If I remember correctly a £60,000 debt to a solicitor ended up costing SUFC £500,000 once the bill and all legal fees on both sides had been paid. I'm sure you remember that.

He also had a huge legal bill to pay from the sale of the South Stand and the flats that were built there.

Stumbled on Tilly by accident and his successes as manager have enabled us to have lucrative results.

Maybe so, but he was also decisive and ruthless in getting rid of Wignall. He also had the foresight to give Tilly a new contract at a time when most chairmen would have given him the sack.

Personally the worst thing Jobson did was ban me from owning a season ticket simply because I lived next door to the solicitor that was demanding his £60,000 debt be paid.

I'm sure you also remember that just before Vic sold to Ron he bought himself a new Jaguar, and his son a nice new sports car, and financed them through Southend United.

I'm sure you also remember the dodgy accounting that went on regarding the said £60,000 debt that was correctly written off in the account (meaning Vic accepted he would lose this battle) but was inexplicably written back after he lost his appeal, and only had the House of Lords left to appeal to. What did he then do? He declared that Southend United would have broken even had it not been for the bank charges and interest.

 

[blue shrimp]

I don't think we should be, but we COULD be.

If every team cut their cloth accordingly then Wigan would still be playing non league football.

Why do so few people have ambition? Do they fear change? Are they risk adverse?

Wigan have been bankrolled by Whelan and of course staying in the prem every season gives them 40 million straight away.

Ambition can be many things including playing in the top division,Few clubs reach their aims and yo yo around the divisions,Lets assume in 3 years time FF has been built and Southend are playing championship football,This Saturday they are playing Bristol Rovers who are 16th and we are 13th..What would the crowd be ..8000 maybe 9000 MAX,Would Ron then say we need gates of 13000 to break even?..The truth is we are and always will be a small town club knocking around in the lower divisions with occassional glory in the 2nd level UNLESS an extremely rich person takes the club on and throws huge piles of cash at the team..Then anything is possiblw within reason.

 

[canveyshrimper]

Wigan have been bankrolled by Whelan and of course staying in the prem every season gives them 40 million straight away.

Ambition can be many things including playing in the top division,Few clubs reach their aims and yo yo around the divisions,Lets assume in 3 years time FF has been built and Southend are playing championship football,This Saturday they are playing Bristol Rovers who are 16th and we are 13th..What would the crowd be ..8000 maybe 9000 MAX,Would Ron then say we need gates of 13000 to break even?..The truth is we are and always will be a small town club knocking around in the lower divisions with occassional glory in the 2nd level UNLESS an extremely rich person takes the club on and throws huge piles of cash at the team..Then anything is possiblw within reason.

As I am sure none of the members of SZ are Mystic Meg, and as such can't see into the future how can we speculate?

I think this thread is going round in circles. Closed.