Regional growth fund

[osymandus]

So at what stage do you stop holding someone’s hand and expect them to work out that if they want something that costs a tenner but they only have a fiver, they can’t afford it?

That's not holding someone's hand

In an economy based on consumerism , it is to the benifit that that person gets a loan to buy the object (Bank/loaner gives them a credit card maybe) . The individual if educated correctly should know the value of the object being bought and if they can afford or even need the item (is it a daily essential , a luxury item etc etc ). If the person has failed to grasp that then the failure is with their educators . If the loaners are aware of this persons short comings then some blame also lies with them (do they know this person can repay ? is it just a short term high interest rate for excessive profit).

There is no one easy answer , our error is thinking there is.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

That's not holding someone's hand

In an economy based on consumerism , it is to the benifit that that person gets a loan to buy the object (Bank/loaner gives them a credit card maybe) . The individual if educated correctly should know the value of the object being bought and if they can afford or even need the item (is it a daily essential , a luxury item etc etc ). If the person has failed to grasp that then the failure is with their educators . If the loaners are aware of this persons short comings then some blame also lies with them (do they know this person can repay ? is it just a short term high interest rate for excessive profit).

There is no one easy answer , our error is thinking there is.

The easy answer is the individual takes responsibility for their actions.

Sure, they can be given some guidance along the way, but ultimately the buck has to stop with the individual.

ps I very much expect there is accountability at the bank. If someone's racking up losses because their book of business keeps on defaulting then I expect they'll get the boot.

 

[steveo]

Osy, it’s not really a fault with the educators, if someone can count they should be able to work it out for themselves. And I agree, people shouldn’t be lending money to individuals who are unable to pay it back. Unfortunately there are a whole bunch of people who are quite happy to take what they can get and worry about the consequences later. Then when they can’t py the y blame someone else.

My brother in law has a number or properties that the Council rent from him to house certain families. The Council used to pay him direct. A few years ago the system changed and they paid the rent money to the family expecting them to pay the Landlord, which they didn’t. Instead they went and spent it on other things that they clearly couldn’t afford. Took him 4 months to get them out.

Temptation and greed is the main problem.

 

[osymandus]

The easy answer is the individual takes responsibility for their actions.

Sure, they can be given some guidance along the way, but ultimately the buck has to stop with the individual.

ps I very much expect there is accountability at the bank. If someone's racking up losses because their book of business keeps on defaulting then I expect they'll get the boot.

And who's criteria do we take as the absolute . Responsibility is a vague term as is morality and conscience. As an example our ethics are based on a Christian paradigm . That's help the sick and poor and don't be a lender ! Yet there are those who advocate what you have carved out and made for yourself defines you as the top of the pecking order (often incorrectly quoting survival of the fittest , that just means you have adapted and work with in your environment not pillage it of everything it has). Everyone has the RIGHT to do what they wish , taking the consequences and understanding them is what matters and that is not the easy part . What use do we have for leaders if everyone takes their own responsibilties and consequences , they just become administrators ?

 

[osymandus]

Osy, it’s not really a fault with the educators, if someone can count they should be able to work it out for themselves. And I agree, people shouldn’t be lending money to individuals who are unable to pay it back. Unfortunately there are a whole bunch of people who are quite happy to take what they can get and worry about the consequences later. Then when they can’t py the y blame someone else.

My brother in law has a number or properties that the Council rent from him to house certain families. The Council used to pay him direct. A few years ago the system changed and they paid the rent money to the family expecting them to pay the Landlord, which they didn’t. Instead they went and spent it on other things that they clearly couldn’t afford. Took him 4 months to get them out.

Temptation and greed is the main problem.

No such thing as a bad student just the wrong teacher . If someone has been failed in their education then yes it is the fault of said educators . For not finding how to get the information into the student. We take the case of children , of which we should be educating on money and how basic finance works , if they don;t understand it it is the fault of the their educators . That is personal responsibility as we are saying .

The landlord system changed becuase of a small amount of corrupt landlords who withheld the moneys from the people who were house in their properties (so people like your brother in law were made worse off) . Im handling saying all tenants are angels but that change also came from temptation and greed . However why do these concepts even exist ?

 

[applelover]

Two points: there is a difference between a budget and cash. If you want to have a £100bn investment then you need £100bn in cash to do it. By all means budget the NPV as positive factoring reduced welfare costs, increased tax revenues from growth etc, but you still need the £100bn cash! No one would lend it to us (except at huge cost that would probably push the NPV negative) or we would have to print money. That would be an inflationary disaster.

Point two is it is impossible to guarantee 100% employment. The two main reasons for this are that much of our unemployment is structural and the second that we live in a deregulated international labour market. From 1997 to 2009, some 2.5m additional people were employed in the UK. Of that increase, some 95% of the increase were non-UK nationals. In other words, immigrant labour was required to fill vacancies because unemployment was largely structural. There is a whole study on this that is worth looking at.

Second, why not look at the biggest infastructure project currently taking place in the UK: The Olympic Park. The estimates I have found put immigrant labour on the project at 30% of the workforce. Only 2% of the workforce are residents of Hackney.



By doing what? You are suggesting a capital investment project. History is littered with the useless products of such policies (Japan is a prime example) because governments are terrible at allocating capital. They simply don't have the skill, information or incentive structures to optimise capital llocation. Whilst growth might get a short-term moderate boost, it will ultimately be a poor use of money (that we don't have and can't get) that won't add a thing to GDP.

The points you mention are only an issue if you take these steps within the current econonic system we operate within. What I am asking is whether we need to get out of the game we are currently playing and rewrite the rules? Personally i'd like to see business given a responsibilty to hire, the subsidy to do so and the protection from free trade rules that would allow them to thrive. This could be achieved within a small state and low tax economy with a significant degreee of management of our currency and our prices.

This is a radical step but it may be a rational move to pre-empt what I see as an inevitable catasphrophe and collapse of the eurozone and meltdown of financial markets, if we don't take action to protect our economy from this then we will go down with the rest of Europe.

 

[ldnfatso]

After months of the coalition doing their best to eliminate any chance of economic growth they have finally announced a policy that suggests that they haven't entirely forgotten the meaning of the term 'econmic growth'.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/oct/31/nick-clegg-investment-new-jobs?newsfeed=true

All we need now is for them to realise that the fund should be increased a hundred fold and we might actually get Britain working again.

We need to subsidise business to guarantee 100% employment and put this country back where it belongs.

You are from another planet and i claim my Fiver!

 

[steveo]

No such thing as a bad student just the wrong teacher . ?

And that Osy, is complete and utter claptrap.

 

[osymandus]

And that Osy, is complete and utter claptrap.

No , most educationalist (i.e teachers , lecturers , private tutor work based educators ) will tell you every single person has a specific way in which they learn . Weather a specific learning difficulty forces them or just even down to preference as to how they learn . While there are multiple methods , they just don't work for everyone .

Find how the student learns , you educate them . If you force the wrong method you frustrate and damage the student.
A "teacher" is a trained or highly experienced person with in the area they teach in (or should be ), they should also be able to say when they can't teach a certain student .

 

[steveo]

No , most educationalist (i.e teachers , lecturers , private tutor work based educators ) will tell you every single person has a specific way in which they learn . Weather a specific learning difficulty forces them or just even down to preference as to how they learn . While there are multiple methods , they just don't work for everyone .

Find how the student learns , you educate them . If you force the wrong method you frustrate and damage the student.
A "teacher" is a trained or highly experienced person with in the area they teach in (or should be ), they should also be able to say when they can't teach a certain student .

How about the ones that don’t want to learn and would rather mess around? And don’t tell me they don’t exist cos I was one of them.

 

[osymandus]

How about the ones that don’t want to learn and would rather mess around? And don’t tell me they don’t exist cos I was one of them.

They never found the method that would engage you . I notice your example was personal so there for justifying your experience .
You or some one else clearly found it though , you can use a pc , have English , maths and others skills . So therefore there was a method to teach you .

If your "messing" about its normally because your bored , kid's do it to learn about their environment , its called playing .

 

[applelover]

You are from another planet and i claim my Fiver!

If you speak to people in the city (not the fools on tv who are talking down the crisis to protect their self interest by avoiding the risk of a self fulfilling prophecy) its amazing how many would have told you months ago that the euro is dead in the water. If the euro zone collapsed then greece, Italy, spain, Portugal and maybe even France will default on their debts. The only feasible alternative would be to allow China to buy up their debt. This option would give China a disturbing level of influence of domestic and foreign policy in Europe. If these countries do default then our banks will been massively exposed directly but also to debts owed to them by other banks who had lent money to these countries.

At this point the taxpayer is going to be asked to bail the banks out again an our current politicians will no doubt obey their masters and oblige. To me this is simply throwing good money after bad. We need to do something different and do so very quickly. We need to change the rules of the game whilst we're still important enough as a consumer to do so. I see nothing but oblivion and southern European levels of unemployment if we don't act.

 

[osymandus]

If you speak to people in the city (not the fools on tv who are talking down the crisis to protect their self interest by avoiding the risk of a self fulfilling prophecy) its amazing how many would have told you months ago that the euro is dead in the water. If the euro zone collapsed then greece, Italy, spain, Portugal and maybe even France will default on their debts. The only feasible alternative would be to allow China to buy up their debt. This option would give China a disturbing level of influence of domestic and foreign policy in Europe. If these countries do default then our banks will been massively exposed directly but also to debts owed to them by other banks who had lent money to these countries.

At this point the taxpayer is going to be asked to bail the banks out again an our current politicians will no doubt obey their masters and oblige. To me this is simply throwing good money after bad. We need to do something different and do so very quickly. We need to change the rules of the game whilst we're still important enough as a consumer to do so. I see nothing but oblivion and southern European levels of unemployment if we don't act.

Joss Whedon is the prophet and my master ;-)

 

[applelover]

Joss Whedon is the prophet and my master ;-)

:winking:

Oi you! Stop using buffy references I don't understand. Also stop arguing with your girlfriend steveo and get back on topic

 

[osymandus]

:winking:

Oi you! Stop using buffy references I don't understand. Also stop arguing with your girlfriend steveo and get back on topic

Was actually Firefly :P

 

[Perth Bambi]

So what you are saying is in a class of 25, 24 of the pupils come out with A* grades and 1 comes out with a C because they muck around, don't do their homework, play truant and generally cause problems, it is the fault of the teacher they get a C?

 

[steveo]

So what you are saying is in a class of 25, 24 of the pupils come out with A* grades and 1 comes out with a C because they muck around, don't do their homework, play truant and generally cause problems, it is the fault of the teacher they get a C?

That's what he's saying. Its all part of blaming everyone else for your own short comings so it follows that people who run up debts they cant afford to pay back can now blame their teacher.

I've always taught my kids If you cant afford it dont' buy it, and they have money in the bank. Must have had good teachers.

 

[osymandus]

So what you are saying is in a class of 25, 24 of the pupils come out with A* grades and 1 comes out with a C because they muck around, don't do their homework, play truant and generally cause problems, it is the fault of the teacher they get a C?

Well 1) The kid still passed and 2 ) Who knows those hypothetical situations can't be used to judge against a real world situation . Maybe the kid could only get a C . Maybe the subject was not their best , and maybe the student simply didn't fit. But as a Teacher/educator its down to that person to try and find out why (also C again isn't a failure so why use it as an example of ?)

 

[osymandus]

That's what he's saying. Its all part of blaming everyone else for your own short comings so it follows that people who run up debts they cant afford to pay back can now blame their teacher.

I've always taught my kids If you cant afford it dont' buy it, and they have money in the bank. Must have had good teachers.

Nope you've missed the point . Many people speak about personal responsibly yet only attribute it to their own views . When you take on the role of a teacher , you have a responsibility to provide the best possible method you can to teach your students the subject you are teaching . Also when we speak of students who are you referring to . If its a child then the adult has the greater responsibility to make sure the child understands in the best way possible . If a more mature student then a more open communication must exist . As an adult we have greater understanding of how we learn . The trained teacher must take that into consideration . As children we have less of this understanding.

If someone set out to instruct you in a specific skill but failed thne yes it is mostly their fault . If however you took the lessons and still ignored them for your own reasons that is yours (in your simplistic model ) , however so many other factors exisit that this is not simple . There is no easy answer , as the lessons of one will not always teach others in the same way . We are not all the same .

 

[Benfleet A1]

Nope you've missed the point . Many people speak about personal responsibly yet only attribute it to their own views . When you take on the role of a teacher , you have a responsibility to provide the best possible method you can to teach your students the subject you are teaching . Also when we speak of students who are you referring to . If its a child then the adult has the greater responsibility to make sure the child understands in the best way possible . If a more mature student then a more open communication must exist . As an adult we have greater understanding of how we learn . The trained teacher must take that into consideration . As children we have less of this understanding.

If someone set out to instruct you in a specific skill but failed thne yes it is mostly their fault . If however you took the lessons and still ignored them for your own reasons that is yours (in your simplistic model ) , however so many other factors exisit that this is not simple . There is no easy answer , as the lessons of one will not always teach others in the same way . We are not all the same .

Genial Harry Grout in agrees with Osymandus shocker!! I never thought I would see the day but I agree with everything you say in the above quote. My daughter is number blind, she cannot grasp simple sums other than adding and fails poorly with subtraction, multiplication and division. I think it is partly the way she is being taught. Schools are forced to teach kids in the same way ( which I disagree with alot of the methods) and teachers will not deviate from the set ways. As you rightly say, we are all different and not all of us understand prefered methods and some need things simplified. I try to teach her differently so she understands but she goes back to the school ways because she doesn't want to get into trouble.

I also agree with instructing others in specific skills. I have been tasked with teaching several chaps with opporating a streetlifter crane, possibly the most dangerous bit of kit in the recovery industry. I have a calm and casual approach to training, I like to put people at ease, I don't stand too close as if I'm going to grab the controls and I normally have a fag in my hand to give the impression that I have faith and it's just a stroll in the park. In truth I am fully in control and no one is in any danger just as long as they do what I say. I test badly so secretly treat a pupil as if he is me. I have a 100% pass rate because I train people properly and safely. If I say stop then they stop. If they start to get flustered then we take a break, no fuss, no shouting, no tutting or raising eyebrows, just take a step back and start again. I could get anyone on this site though a streetlifter crane course in 2 hours without exception. It's only when they choose to cut corners that problems arise and in my game those problems can be deadly. I cut corners once and almost killed a police officer and myself, I didn't do it again. I normally tell that story as part of my training programme which seems to do the trick but the second someone decides my training isn't nessesary is the moment lifes are in danger.

So yes, Osy is spot on with this one.