Michael Gove gets it wrong again.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Actually,most people who know me,would I think agree, that I'm a highly articulate person.
But you're right though,I didn't exactly shine in the lit.and deb.society.

However I did perform well in GS classes where IIRC(and I do)one master wrote on my report "He spoke intelligently when prodded."

Incidentally,why did you make this reputation comment on my previous post?

"More crap. You're a failure. Deal with it."

Why not try arguing your case occasionally rather than just dishing out bile?

When you come up with a coherent argument rather than the usual politics of envy and self-congratulation then I might bother arguing with you. There's no need at the moment because you destroy your own 'arguments' with your own idiocy and hilariously transparent self-loathing.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

That was over 50 years ago now.It's symptomatic of Britain's highly class ridden society that anyone(i.e. you and others) could still want to make an issue of it, in today's(not so) modern Britain.

I'd imagine that Rusty is precisely the sort of person(along with many others of his and your political persuasion)who equates status with earnings.In any case, I suspect he was referring to earnings rather than status.

In answer to your question,my younger brother(the Investment Banker)didn't even take the exam but still finished up at Cambridge.Shrimpero did pass however.

Yogi(below)was quite right.The tv sketch he mentions was(and is)extremely funny.Unfortunately,the reality that underpins it, even today,is not.(And yes I know that it wasn't a MP sketch.Thanks.)

The 11 plus is a test of intelligence, not class.

I find your family fascinating. Such contrasts. I don't think Shrimpero could do cantankerous if he tried.

If I didn't think it would just encourage you, I'd admit to a begrudging admiration for your stubborness in refusing to admit you're wrong in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

When you come up with a coherent argument rather than the usual politics of envy and self-congratulation then I might bother arguing with you. There's no need at the moment because you destroy your own 'arguments' with your own idiocy and hilariously transparent self-loathing.

You have still not addressed any of the points about Michael Gove's proposed educational reforms mentioned in my original post or elsewhere, nor rebutted any of the comments made by myself and others about the lack of educational equality and opportunity for many in the UK.

Meanwhile, you continue to churn out abuse ad nauseam(to me and others whose views you disagree with) rather than make any intelligent contributions to this forum.Frankly, the only thing that continues to suprise me about that, is why you're allowed to get away with it.

Incidentally,I'd like to see some evidence for what you call my "hilariously transparent self-loathing." In the absence of any, I'd suggest that this is perhaps your problem, rather than mine.:raspberry:

Furthermore, I've received two recent complaints from fellow zoners(neither of whom I know personally)that you've been abusive to them via the reputation facility, immediately after they've demonstrated support for my views.That's pathetic,bullying behaviour of the worst possible kind.

You clearly have some powerful friends here on SZ.I can imagine who some of them are.They would appear to share your extreme right-wing views and more significantly(IMO)seem to condone the disgraceful and abusive way you express them.They seem quite happy to sit back and let you do their dirty work for them, thus avoiding the spotlight themselves.That makes you, their fully licenced attack dog or rottweiler and them, nothing short of pimps,in my eyes.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

The 11 plus is a test of intelligence, not class.

I find your family fascinating. Such contrasts. I don't think Shrimpero could do cantankerous if he tried.

If I didn't think it would just encourage you, I'd admit to a begrudging admiration for your stubborness in refusing to admit you're wrong in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

First of all, if you'd ever read anything by Richard Hoggart,Brian Jackson,Basil Bernstein,or any other notable writer on education, you'd know that the 11 plus was(and continues to be), very much a test which favours middle class children.

This is because it tests mainly non-verbal reasoning, rather than any of the many other types of intelligence.As far back as 1963,The Ministry of Education concluded,"The kind of intelligence which is measured by the test...is largely an acquired characteristic."

That's precisely why so many middle class parents in the Borough of Southend,the Peoples Republic of Kent,Buckinghamshire etc flock to buy test booklets,send their kids to private schools, or hire tutors for their anxious 10 year olds.

That there are many different types of intelligence ,cognitive,emotional,kinasthetic,verbal,non-verbal etc,etc, is well known and has been extensively demonstrated by educational psychologists.

There is no such thing as a test of intelligence, per se.You are always testing for a particular type or types of intelligence.

The two elements you mention above-class and intelligence- are of course, highly inter-related. See Bernstein,in particular, for a rich discussion of the concepts of "restricted code" and "elaborated code",as applied to working class and middle class children, respectively.See also Hoggart, in "The Uses of Literacy" for a classic,vivid,and first hand account of the isolation and distress felt by a bright working class boy in a middle class Grammar School environment, as he struggles to adapt.

Contrary to your assertion, the "overwhelming evidence" you mention(but don't cite),is very much on my side, rather than yours.That's precisely why the 11+ was abolished, in so many counties in the UK, in the first place.

Second,thanks but I don't need any encouragement(or not) from you to argue my case.FWIW,I agree with you though about Shrimpero.I think he'd willingly confirm my stubborness too.:winking:

You talk as though the 60's somehow didn't, or shouldn't have happened .This particular educational and political debate was won then(or even back in the 50's) by the Comprehensives lobby.Have you never heard of the 1959 Crowther Report,the later(1963) Robbins Report or the Newsom Report?

For an excellent review of the relevant literature, I'd recommend Melissa Benn's recent(2011)School Wars(The Battle for Britain's Education).

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

As far as education is concerned, I'm grateful,coming as I do from a working class background,to have been given an opportunity to escape that upbringing.I grasped it with both hands when I could.

I can't believe nobody has picked you up on this rank hypocrisy. You want to deny children the opportunity for which you're so grateful? I also had a working class background, but was able to get where I am now through passing the eleven plus and attending a grammar school for seven years, before continuing my education at a top flight university. The 'one size fits all' approach that you support wouldn't have stopped someone of my undoubted brilliance, but it would definitely destroy any hopes of a simpleton like your good self doing any more than flipping burgers.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

You clearly have some powerful friends here on SZ.I can imagine who some of them are.They would appear to share your extreme right-wing views and more significantly(IMO)seem to condone the disgraceful and abusive way you express them.They seem quite happy to sit back and let you do their dirty work for them, thus avoiding the spotlight themselves.That makes you, their fully licenced attack dog or rottweiler and them, nothing short of pimps,in my eyes.

That's fantastic. You are the Karl Pilkington of Shrimperzone, but without any of the charm and social graces.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I can't believe nobody has picked you up on this rank hypocrisy. You want to deny children the opportunity for which you're so grateful? I also had a working class background, but was able to get where I am now through passing the eleven plus and attending a grammar school for seven years, before continuing my education at a top flight university. The 'one size fits all' approach that you support wouldn't have stopped someone of my undoubted brilliance, but it would definitely destroy any hopes of a simpleton like your good self doing any more than flipping burgers.

There you go with the gratuitous insults again.

Please read Mellissa Benn's "School Wars",which I mentioned in a previous post.She makes a much more powerful case for comprehensive schools than I could ever do.

In any case, you've already lost the argument here.

The reality is that Comprehensive schools are here to stay.

They would indeed be greatly improved in Southend and elsewhere by the complete abolition of Grammar schools.

As Benn makes clear, it's been electoral suicide in the UK(ever since 1964)for politicians of any political persuasion to declare themselves in favour of selection at eleven.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

That's fantastic. You are the Karl Pilkington of Shrimperzone, but without any of the charm and social graces.

It might be "fantastic", as you say, but I strongly suspect it's the truth.

As for charm, I can remember a former Danish girlfriend of mine saying to me:"You can be really quite charming when you feel like it." She was quite right.Only, strangely enough, I don't feel like being charming towards you.:raspberry:

 

[OldBlueLady]

Bloody get a room you two! Or a forum of your own for these weighty debates!

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

There you go with the gratuitous insults again.

Please read Mellissa Benn's "School Wars",which I mentioned in a previous post.She makes a much more powerful case for comprehensive schools than I could ever do.

In any case, you've already lost the argument here.

The reality is that Comprehensive schools are here to stay.

They would indeed be greatly improved in Southend and elsewhere by the complete abolition of Grammar schools.

As Benn makes clear, it's been electoral suicide in the UK(ever since 1964)for politicians of any political persuasion to declare themselves in favour of selection at eleven.

How have I lost the argument when you have stated that you benefited from selective education and the opportunity it gave you to escape the working class? Which is as bizarre a statement from a self-confessed 'socialist' as I've ever heard.

 

[Jam_Man]

Think this one has run its course....