Jeremy Corbyn's Labour

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

All that should show you is the strength of my feelings around this subject and how badly the labour party in general, and ********* specifically, have handled it. At least I don't blindly defend the indefensible, which you continue to do on this subject.

Labour Party racists - suspended or expelled, investigation carried out by human rights lawyer, rules tighten, rules tightened again at conference.

Conservative Party racists - open racist promoted to Foreign Secretary / open racist failed Mayoral Candidate allowed to quit as a Tory MP and then stand again as a Tory MP

 

[londonblue]

Labour Party racists - suspended or expelled, investigation carried out by human rights lawyer, rules tighten, rules tightened again at conference.

Conservative Party racists - open racist promoted to Foreign Secretary / open racist failed Mayoral Candidate allowed to quit as a Tory MP and then stand again as a Tory MP

Cherry picking in the extreme. KL should be expelled, he'll be back soon. He was supposed to be investigated again because he continued to spout his anti semitic bile whilst suspended. As far as I'm aware nothing has happened. We've also done the whitewash of the investigation to death. That report has zero merit. Not all that long ago a Conservative member made some kind of racist comment and was expelled the next day. No investigation, no 2nd chances, they were simply booted out. (Sorry it's a bit of a vague example, but I can't remember the detail.) The rules in the labour party are now in line with everyone else. That isn't great is it? Conference may have tightened the rules, but even during the conference those rules were flouted. I guess actions speak louder than words.

How do you feel about labour friends of palestine calling for the final solution of the middle east situation?

LBC

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Cherry picking in the extreme. KL should be expelled, he'll be back soon. He was supposed to be investigated again because he continued to spout his anti semitic bile whilst suspended. As far as I'm aware nothing has happened. We've also done the whitewash of the investigation to death. That report has zero merit. Not all that long ago a Conservative member made some kind of racist comment and was expelled the next day. No investigation, no 2nd chances, they were simply booted out. (Sorry it's a bit of a vague example, but I can't remember the detail.) The rules in the labour party are now in line with everyone else. That isn't great is it? Conference may have tightened the rules, but even during the conference those rules were flouted. I guess actions speak louder than words.

How do you feel about labour friends of palestine calling for the final solution of the middle east situation?

LBC

The Tory you are referring to was a Councillor.
Cannon fodder really though.


Surely if you wanted to compare how parties would deal with racism you would compare:
Labour ex Mayor suspended for two years
Conservatives failed Mayor candidate no punishment, allowed to be reelected as an MP


That is a like for like comparison

 

[londonblue]

The Tory you are referring to was a Councillor.
Cannon fodder really though.


Surely if you wanted to compare how parties would deal with racism you would compare:
Labour ex Mayor suspended for two years
Conservatives failed Mayor candidate no punishment, allowed to be reelected as an MP


That is a like for like comparison

Not really, I think you really need to look at the numbers of incidents: the labour party are mired in ****. Other parties have one or two incidents. Ex mayor who makes comment after comment gets suspended and dodges a 2nd investigation, and isn't thrown out. Conservative councilor makes one racist remark and is thrown out immediately. Sounds like a good comparison to me.

How do you feel about labour friends of palestine calling for the final solution to the middle east situation?

LBC

 

[Gremlin]

On the subject of enquiries,can't say I'm expecting too much from the Grenfell enquiry but we shall see.

Hopefully it will at least shine some light on sub-letting and any illegal immigrants that were being harboured.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Not really, I think you really need to look at the numbers of incidents: the labour party are mired in ****. Other parties have one or two incidents. Ex mayor who makes comment after comment gets suspended and dodges a 2nd investigation, and isn't thrown out. Conservative councilor makes one racist remark and is thrown out immediately. Sounds like a good comparison to me.

How do you feel about labour friends of palestine calling for the final solution to the middle east situation?

LBC

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this. For me if an individual is identified as breaking the rules and dealt with then the intention is to deal with the issue.




As we discussed at length at the time Livingstone was suspended for two years. To expel him would have lead to a court case and kept the issue in the limelight and his provocative words would keep being aired. Legally the party would not necessarily have grounds to stand on as there is an argument that what he said is not historically incorrect - as was discussed at the time and a court may have ruled expulsion was not legal. So to suspend him for two years makes sense - his provocative ways are denied the limelight as to the public he as good as doesn't exist in the meantime. The changes in the party rules may well mean that his suspension is upgraded to a ban when the time comes. We, along with many other people can revisit then.


Comparing an ex Mayor of London who is a nationally recognised figure to a Councillor that neither of us could name doesn't really make sense. The Tories have two high profile openly racist MPs who have had no sanctions against them and not even an official apology for their words and actions.






Voting for a party that allows that and giving the reason as an anti-racist vote is preposterous.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Hopefully it will at least shine some light on sub-letting and any illegal immigrants that were being harboured.

is that your main focus for the outcome of the enquiry?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Not really, I think you really need to look at the numbers of incidents: the labour party are mired in ****. Other parties have one or two incidents. Ex mayor who makes comment after comment gets suspended and dodges a 2nd investigation, and isn't thrown out. Conservative councilor makes one racist remark and is thrown out immediately. Sounds like a good comparison to me.

How do you feel about labour friends of palestine calling for the final solution to the middle east situation?

LBC

I didn't realise Maajid Nawaz was from Southend. I've seen him on TV a few times and he has interesting views. He has been an Islamist, an anti Islamist, tried and failed to de-radicalise Tommy Robinson. When I have heard him speak before I have liked his honesty about his past and with him obviously putting a lot of effort into making amends, but I have often found him to be anti-left wing - I don't know if that is because he has been a LibDem candidate so they are fighting for the same voters, or maybe he is just against a left wing mindset.


Ironically as he is Muslim and seemingly anti-Corbyn so I doubt he would like your Islamification of Corbyn's name!


LBC is a strange place - they love polarising characters - Nigel Farage, Katie Hopkins, having Owen Jones in as a stand in recently. Maybe Nawaz is under pressure to promote.....dramatic elements to the subjects they are putting across, maybe not.




I don't have any connection to any fringe groups so the one he refers to is not one I'm familiar with so I googled them and straight away came to an article to the Jewish Chronicle (is that the one you read? I know you've posted links to a Jewish news outlet before - this one?). Anyway I don't know if you or Nawaz have read this already but the Jewish Chronicle have printed an apology from the group involved but the JC have printed the full apology for the badly worded tweet, they said it was an error and are aware of the connotations and the wording of the apology seems sincere. The JC doesn't comment on it but just prints the apology - I don't know if that implies an acceptance of the apology but they are passing the apology on at least.


Obviously Nawaz as a reformed Islamist is well versed in accepting when you have made an error, and as he tried to reform a racist football hooligan he is clearly willing to accept changes in other people. So I assume when he went on air he hadn't seen the apology or maybe it hadn't been issued at that point.


Presumably you haven't seen it either so here it is:


https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/labour-friends-of-palestine-final-solution-apology-1.445202

 

[Bielzibubz]

Hopefully it will at least shine some light on sub-letting and any illegal immigrants that were being harboured.

Which incidentally is why they cannot come up with a final victim count as a number of those that died weren't on the register of tenants, nor were they 'on the system' so to speak.

And before you go on one of your quite distasteful political point scoring exercises Barna you might do well to remember a salient point. The Grenfell Tower disaster was an accident that had been waiting to happen for years and cannot be blamed on one party or another despite what you say about cuts etc, and up and down the country there are still thousands and thousands of other tower block tenants that have been systematically let down by their council, both Tory and Labour, with an eye to diluting the building regs and saving money over the years.

Every council that sanctioned the building of, now runs and/or owns a tower block without a room by room sprinkler system has been playing a game of risk v cost with peoples lives for decades and inevitably someone was going to pay the price. It's basic risk assessment on a grand scale.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Unless Labour sort this kind of **** out, they will never get elected. #PCbollocks
http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/155...ng_because_party_wants_all_female_short_list/

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Unless Labour sort this kind of **** out, they will never get elected. #PCbollocks
http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/155...ng_because_party_wants_all_female_short_list/

I believe the correct reaction to your reaction is LOL. Matt supports his own non selection because he wants politicians to reflect the make up of society. If you don't want policy decisions to be just made by male Etonians then you have to encourage people who fall outside of that demographic to get involved, and this is a way to speed up that process. The wannabe candidate is happy to be overlooked so I wouldn't be overly concerned if I were you.

 

[OldBlueLady]

I believe the correct reaction to your reaction is LOL. Matt supports his own non selection because he wants politicians to reflect the make up of society. If you don't want policy decisions to be just made by male Etonians then you have to encourage people who fall outside of that demographic to get involved, and this is a way to speed up that process. The wannabe candidate is happy to be overlooked so I wouldn't be overly concerned if I were you.

That shows the kind of brain washing that goes on though - you pick the best candidate for the job regardless of gender or ethnicity!

It's like my husband being told when in charge of reception at the prison that "we've not released enough Chinese prisoners this week"!!! All just tick boxing.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Which incidentally is why they cannot come up with a final victim count as a number of those that died weren't on the register of tenants, nor were they 'on the system' so to speak.

And before you go on one of your quite distasteful political point scoring exercises Barna you might do well to remember a salient point. The Grenfell Tower disaster was an accident that had been waiting to happen for years and cannot be blamed on one party or another despite what you say about cuts etc, and up and down the country there are still thousands and thousands of other tower block tenants that have been systematically let down by their council, both Tory and Labour, with an eye to diluting the building regs and saving money over the years.

Every council that sanctioned the building of, now runs and/or owns a tower block without a room by room sprinkler system has been playing a game of risk v cost with peoples lives for decades and inevitably someone was going to pay the price. It's basic risk assessment on a grand scale.

why are you attacking someone for something you imagine they might say? The guy hasn't even got his green light on and you are cussing him for a possible reply to a post he hasn't even seen yet!

 

[OldBlueLady]

I believe the correct reaction to your reaction is LOL. Matt supports his own non selection because he wants politicians to reflect the make up of society. If you don't want policy decisions to be just made by male Etonians then you have to encourage people who fall outside of that demographic to get involved, and this is a way to speed up that process. The wannabe candidate is happy to be overlooked so I wouldn't be overly concerned if I were you.

That shows the kind of brain washing that goes on though - you pick the best candidate for the job regardless of gender or ethnicity!

It's like my husband being told when in charge of reception at the prison that "we've not released enough Chinese prisoners this week"!!! All just tick boxing.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

That shows the kind of brain washing that goes on though - you pick the best candidate for the job regardless of gender or ethnicity!

It's like my husband being told when in charge of reception at the prison that "we've not released enough Chinese prisoners this week"!!! All just tick boxing.

are prisoners supposed to reflect the make up of society? Not a comparison that works.
If more women had been encouraged into politics sooner you may have not had situations like tampons being classed as a luxury item! You need a cross section of people to get all opinions aired - they are supposed to represent all of us and the process of making that happen clearly needs massaging to make it happen.

As a white middle aged homeowner who lives in Surrey I'm happy for people that are different to me to have a say, I'm over represented in politics.

 

[Bielzibubz]

why are you attacking someone for something you imagine they might say? The guy hasn't even got his green light on and you are cussing him for a possible reply to a post he hasn't even seen yet!

Because he implied where he was going when he said he expected nothing to come from the inquest into the tragedy and lets be honest we know from past experiences that's an indicator of things to come.

 

[Gremlin]

is that your main focus for the outcome of the enquiry?

Nope, but it's a part that mustn't be overlooked if it's to be a full and complete enquiry however much some people would prefer it to be swept under the carpet.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Nope, but it's a part that mustn't be overlooked if it's to be a full and complete enquiry however much some people would prefer it to be swept under the carpet.

I'd expect it to be way down the list of priorities personally. An amnesty would be of more value IMO - identifying the dead has to take priority over deciphering who shouldn't officially have been staying there.

 

[londonblue]

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this. For me if an individual is identified as breaking the rules and dealt with then the intention is to deal with the issue.




As we discussed at length at the time Livingstone was suspended for two years. To expel him would have lead to a court case and kept the issue in the limelight and his provocative words would keep being aired. Legally the party would not necessarily have grounds to stand on as there is an argument that what he said is not historically incorrect - as was discussed at the time and a court may have ruled expulsion was not legal. So to suspend him for two years makes sense - his provocative ways are denied the limelight as to the public he as good as doesn't exist in the meantime. The changes in the party rules may well mean that his suspension is upgraded to a ban when the time comes. We, along with many other people can revisit then.


Comparing an ex Mayor of London who is a nationally recognised figure to a Councillor that neither of us could name doesn't really make sense. The Tories have two high profile openly racist MPs who have had no sanctions against them and not even an official apology for their words and actions.






Voting for a party that allows that and giving the reason as an anti-racist vote is preposterous.

What a load of tripe. The labour party shouldn't care less if expelling KL would lead to a court case because it is one they would have won hands down because what he said was a) extremely anti-semitic, and b) completely historically incorrect. (If you don't think so then I urge you to educate yourself because you're just swallowing a whole load of neo nazi propaganda without even realising it. Seriously, if you want to understand the issues properly, you should read this: Click here.) The only way this would have led to a court case if if KL would have brought such a case, which would have done the world a favour because he would have been annihilated in the same way David Irving was.

I'm also not comparing the people that have been dealt with, I'm comparing the actions of the party. One party expels immediately and the other tells people "this is your final last warning" much like a referee without the balls to send someone off.

 

[londonblue]

I didn't realise Maajid Nawaz was from Southend. I've seen him on TV a few times and he has interesting views. He has been an Islamist, an anti Islamist, tried and failed to de-radicalise Tommy Robinson. When I have heard him speak before I have liked his honesty about his past and with him obviously putting a lot of effort into making amends, but I have often found him to be anti-left wing - I don't know if that is because he has been a LibDem candidate so they are fighting for the same voters, or maybe he is just against a left wing mindset.


Ironically as he is Muslim and seemingly anti-Corbyn so I doubt he would like your Islamification of Corbyn's name!


LBC is a strange place - they love polarising characters - Nigel Farage, Katie Hopkins, having Owen Jones in as a stand in recently. Maybe Nawaz is under pressure to promote.....dramatic elements to the subjects they are putting across, maybe not.




I don't have any connection to any fringe groups so the one he refers to is not one I'm familiar with so I googled them and straight away came to an article to the Jewish Chronicle (is that the one you read? I know you've posted links to a Jewish news outlet before - this one?). Anyway I don't know if you or Nawaz have read this already but the Jewish Chronicle have printed an apology from the group involved but the JC have printed the full apology for the badly worded tweet, they said it was an error and are aware of the connotations and the wording of the apology seems sincere. The JC doesn't comment on it but just prints the apology - I don't know if that implies an acceptance of the apology but they are passing the apology on at least.


Obviously Nawaz as a reformed Islamist is well versed in accepting when you have made an error, and as he tried to reform a racist football hooligan he is clearly willing to accept changes in other people. So I assume when he went on air he hadn't seen the apology or maybe it hadn't been issued at that point.


Presumably you haven't seen it either so here it is:


https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/labour-friends-of-palestine-final-solution-apology-1.445202

Interesting. You attack the messenger rather than the message. I get the impression you didn't watch the video at the top of the link I posted. He answers all your attacks. He's a left leaning liberal Muslim and yet even he can see that the labour party is institutionally anti semitic.

I also note that the labour friends of palestine apologised, and actually welcome that. But, and here's the point: they only apologised when someone outside of the labour party pointed out the issue with what they said, in this instance it was Guido Fawkes followed by some Jewish Organisation - not sure who. All this does is prove Nawaz was right. They didn't even realise what they did was wrong. If that isn't institutional I don't know what is. He also mentions the MacPherson report into the police. In this instance the police would have sworn blind they weren't institutionally racist because they couldn't see it. It took an outsider to explain to them where they are letting themselves down. The same is now true of the labour party.

I also note that you don't think they should receive any punishment for what they said. The interesting thing is that there was uproar some time ago when Katie Hopkins called for the final solution to Muslims in this country.

This is also worth a watch:

[video=youtube;6I-t-iCBJT4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I-t-iCBJT4[/video]

Ironically I suspect Nick Griffin is kicking himself these days. All the time he was around he fought with the left wing. He must be thinking it would have been better to become a member of the labour party, that way they would have either agreed with him or given him the odd short lived suspension and then allowed him to carry on.