Jail the ex Nazi?

[londonblue]

Unfortunately it does. Like I've already said we would need to change international law or just say sod it he was a Nazi and find him guilty anyway.

After WW2 Stalin wanted to execute some 50,000 of the top Nazis including most of the SS. Churchill was instrumental in stopping him from doing so. The reason so many Germans and Japanese escaped any form of punishment was that both Russia and the West were far more concerned with the immerging cold war.

Even though there is evidence of people requesting, and getting, a transfer, i.e. they had a choice?

 

[rigsby]

Even though there is evidence of people requesting, and getting, a transfer, i.e. they had a choice?

He was in the SS not the Green party. Yes you could apply for a transfer but unless it was for a more active roll the request would have been denied. On the Eastern front the job of the SS was to follow on from the advancing main German Army [Wehrmacht]. They would then butcher partisans and civilians and loot and burn villages as they pleased.

So if its true, I have my doubts, he was just a book keeper in a camp then he already had one of the least shall we say nasty jobs available to him at the time. As the law stands even if he transferred into the camp at his own request and took part in killings he could still be found not guilty.

 

[londonblue]

He was in the SS not the Green party. Yes you could apply for a transfer but unless it was for a more active roll the request would have been denied. On the Eastern front the job of the SS was to follow on from the advancing main German Army [Wehrmacht]. They would then butcher partisans and civilians and loot and burn villages as they pleased.

Do you know that for sure?

So if its true, I have my doubts, he was just a book keeper in a camp then he already had one of the least shall we say nasty jobs available to him at the time. As the law stands even if he transferred into the camp at his own request and took part in killings he could still be found not guilty.

I don't think his role is being challenged. However, it does somewhat put your first point in doubt...

 

[rigsby]

Do you know that for sure?



I don't think his role is being challenged. However, it does somewhat put your first point in doubt...

Most of them are dead now but after the war there were numerous ex German POW who chose to remain in England. Like Bert Trautman they refused the offer of repatriation. I with worked one and new two others who had met and married local girls and stayed in Essex. From the stories they told me I would doubt most soldiers would even dare think about a transfer request. Remember whole German families were sent to the death camps at the mere suspicion that one of them did not support the Nazi regime.

 

[londonblue]

Most of them are dead now but after the war there were numerous ex German POW who chose to remain in England. Like Bert Trautman they refused the offer of repatriation. I with worked one and new two others who had met and married local girls and stayed in Essex. From the stories they told me I would doubt most soldiers would even dare think about a transfer request. Remember whole German families were sent to the death camps at the mere suspicion that one of them did not support the Nazi regime.

So you're basing you belief on a small number of people that didn't ask for a transfer, and were not actually in the Waffen SS rather than looking at documented evidence of people that were and did?

That's not to say they don't have a point, people may have been too scared to ask. However, the reality seems to be different from the assumptions they made at the time. Moreover, as I pointed out before, what was the alternative? They would probably have been sent somewhere where they would actually have to fight in the war proper, and that probably wouldn't have appealed to them. It was safer where they were.

They had a choice, they chose not to ask to be transferred.

 

[rigsby]

So you're basing you belief on a small number of people that didn't ask for a transfer, and were not actually in the Waffen SS rather than looking at documented evidence of people that were and did?

That's not to say they don't have a point, people may have been too scared to ask. However, the reality seems to be different from the assumptions they made at the time. Moreover, as I pointed out before, what was the alternative? They would probably have been sent somewhere where they would actually have to fight in the war proper, and that probably wouldn't have appealed to them. It was safer where they were.

They had a choice, they chose not to ask to be transferred.

So your case for the prosecution would rest on the fact that a camp book keeper should have requested a transfer in 1942 because we have found a few documents, years later, to say some were granted. Would he have saved a single life by doing so....No

You have no concept of life under Hitler. For a low ranking soldier his commanding officer was God. The German I worked with told me that near the end of the war he was once nearly late back to his unit and had to steal a bicycle. As he peddled like mad to save a summary execution. he realised that if he was caught on a stolen bike he would also be shot. Refusing any order at the time was unthinkable.

What about French or Dutch nationals who helped load Jews onto trains in their respective countries should they stand trial.

I would rather see Switzerland put on trial. They paid out on life insurance policies of the holocaust victims to guess who.....the very Nazis who had murdered them. Good business for the Swiss as the Nazis then sent back lots of stolen art and treasure which was never reclaimed.

 

[Toby Esterhase]

Strip him, humiliate him, and then gas him. Exodus 21:24

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Obviously you don't know what you're talking about. Some of the top Nazis were acquitted at the Nuremberg trials because they were acting on orders so its certainly no myth.

If a soldier is ordered to shoot unarmed civilians, the officer giving the order could be put on trial but not the soldier or even the sergeant who organises the firing squad. Being a member of the SS was never deemed a crime and very few were ever punished for their atrocities.

The only order in the British army a soldier can refuse is to be part of a firing squad on one of our own soldiers.

Actually, yes it is."The civilian population is protected under the Geneva Conventions and these .... Concentration camps, though not mentioned explicitly in the Geneva ... War crimes are againt the customary laws of war."

http://www.spj.org/gc-index.asp

You can't argue with rigsby.

He completely ignores a post which quotes directly from the Geneva Covention.

But hey that's all right because he's (presumbably ) ex-army and a fireman,so obviously knows what he's talking about. :dim:

 

[rigsby]

You can't argue with rigsby.

He completely ignores a post which quotes directly from the Geneva Covention.

But hey that's all right because he's (presumbably ) ex-army and a fireman,so obviously knows what he's talking about. :dim:

No I just ignore you. After all your a racist who refuses to apologise and by the way the term is firefighter....they have women in the fire service now days. Perhaps your sexism is like your racism..... a bit old fashioned

As per usual your post is complete B*******. You quote the Geneva Convention but say nothing. Civilians are protected...well of course they are. So are soldiers or camp guards for that matter and to prove he committed any crime he would have had to act on his own accord whilst at the camp. Sorry if the law does not suite the outcome you would like, but there's no point in trying to insult me, I had nothing to do with introducing them.

I know you left whingers hate anyone in a uniform but what has me being ex army or a firefighter, which I'm not, got to do with anything

 

[steveo]

B*******. You quote the Geneva Convention but say nothing.

He only quoted it because he couldn't find anything in the Guardian

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

No I just ignore you. After all your a racist who refuses to apologise and by the way the term is firefighter....they have women in the fire service now days. Perhaps your sexism is like your racism..... a bit old fashioned

As per usual your post is complete B*******. You quote the Geneva Convention but say nothing. Civilians are protected...well of course they are. So are soldiers or camp guards for that matter and to prove he committed any crime he would have had to act on his own accord whilst at the camp. Sorry if the law does not suite the outcome you would like, but there's no point in trying to insult me, I had nothing to do with introducing them.

I know you left whingers hate anyone in a uniform but what has me being ex army or a firefighter, which I'm not, got to do with anything

Whatever he is he is obviously not racist or sexist - if you make your put downs a bit more relevant the whole process of arguing will be a lot more efficient and rewarding.

 

[rigsby]

Whatever he is he is obviously not racist or sexist - if you make your put downs a bit more relevant the whole process of arguing will be a lot more efficient and rewarding.

Wondered how long before you poked your nose in yet again. As per usual you haven't got a clue. Best you ask your mate about his racism.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Wondered how long before you poked your nose in yet again. As per usual you haven't got a clue. Best you ask your mate about his racism.

You often seem to 'wonder how long' people will crop up on here. He used one outdated term probably because he is an old man, doesn't mean that he doesn't beleive the 48,000 anti racist sentiments he has posted on here no longer exist.
I'm just saying that if you made your personal slurs a bit more accurate it would save a lot of time.

 

[rigsby]

You often seem to 'wonder how long' people will crop up on here. He used one outdated term probably because he is an old man, doesn't mean that he doesn't beleive the 48,000 anti racist sentiments he has posted on here no longer exist.
I'm just saying that if you made your personal slurs a bit more accurate it would save a lot of time.

I tried to point out his 'outdated' term, thought it important he should know as he and his wife teach children. Like all you extreme left whiners who think their morally above the rest of the world he can't be told anything.

 

[Berrichonne shrimper]

I tried to point out his 'outdated' term, thought it important he should know as he and his wife teach children. Like all you extreme left whiners who think their morally above the rest of the world he can't be told anything.[/

The old boy teaches adults and i may be wrong as per but i think his wife teaches teenagers.
It is interesting to read all the following orders comments because back then was a different time and a bad place and i wonder how zoners would cope today if faced with the same situation,i would hope that i would have the courage to refuse to work in a death camp.
Still think if he is found guilty and does time 15/20 years should be just that.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I tried to point out his 'outdated' term, thought it important he should know as he and his wife teach children. Like all you extreme left whiners who think their morally above the rest of the world he can't be told anything.

If you gave some friendly advice at the time then that would have had a great purpose, to then bring it up again is just being a WUM. You didn't even reference that you just called him a racist which you know not to be true.


A couple of days ago you were outraged when I said you didn't understand a left wing frame of mind and numerous times since you have called numerous people left wing whiners. It just all contradictions.


As I said if you made your personal slurs a bit more accurate it would save a lot of time.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32392594

I see Groening has admitted his "moral guilt."

 

[Shrimpin]

I guess that is the point of the court case. If he is found to be guilty of only that, and that doesn't warrant a custodial sentence then he won't be jailed. If he is found to be not guilty (although that seems unlikely given his "confessions") then he won't go to jail.

let me ask you a genuin question, you have a family and you are pressumably quite happy then tomorrow someone walks in your life and says to you, you have a choice , kill someone or be killed yourself. I would choose kill someone, what would you choose?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

let me ask you a genuin question, you have a family and you are pressumably quite happy then tomorrow someone walks in your life and says to you, you have a choice , kill someone or be killed yourself. I would choose kill someone, what would you choose?

To get an accurate answer should the question not be 'participate in genocide or be killed'?

 

[Shrimpin]

But that wasn't the case. There is documented evidence (the Nazis documented everything!) of guards asking to be reassigned away from the camps. They were.

The problem for them was where they would end up, and for most I guess that wasn't a risk worth taking.

but the alternative would be, probably (as I dont know) some form of actual front line role?? with a very high potential to be killed, sure you keep saying there is a choise so what would you do if there was war tomorrow leave all your family and go on the front line in korea? or be offered a role to manage the prisoner bases back home, next thing you know the prisoners are being exercuted, do you put your hands up and say ill go on the front line now please go and tell the wife, or turn a blind eye to it

now also I am not condoning any of the actions of the SS or Nazis as what they did to men women and children is vile and un consevable It makes me get a tear to my eye just thinking about the horrors of the death camps, but I am just genuinly putting my point across, I would to scared to be a soldier (if this was now) and if I got offered another role I would take it, regardless of the consiquences