General Boxing Thread

[Ricey]

You gotta give Wlad some credit though, with the likes of Haye and Briggs recently, he's seen it before and deals with it in good humour.

Difference is I think he will want to follow his brother into politics. Look at Manny a really nice guy at press conferences and he has gone into politics too.

 

[GBJ]

Fury is at it again!

http://www.skysports.com/share/9919833

WAR Tyson!!

It's all a show there though. The one thing I don't get, is Fury cops so much flack, for these type of incidents, whereas when David Haye did exactly the same (if not worse), people loved it?

 

[Ricey]

WAR Tyson!!

It's all a show there though. The one thing I don't get, is Fury cops so much flack, for these type of incidents, whereas when David Haye did exactly the same (if not worse), people loved it?

I'm not giving him cop for this, I think it's brilliant and boxing isn't the same without it. It would be pretty boring if everyone was like Manny at press conferences. I was never a fan of Haye and his incident in Germany with Chisora was embarrassing.

 

[Pubey]

LOL Fury's twitter is something else. I love the contrast between god-bothering pictures and memes, and then this...

 

[GBJ]

I'm not giving him cop for this, I think it's brilliant and boxing isn't the same without it. It would be pretty boring if everyone was like Manny at press conferences. I was never a fan of Haye and his incident in Germany with Chisora was embarrassing.

Not saying you, or anyone in particular Ricey. Just stating their is a general split on feelings towards Fury. People either like him, or dislike him. And those people who dislike him, often claim its because of his outlandish attitude & behaviour. That's fair enough, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Just seems odd, that Haye was lauded for his very similar attitude/actions.

 

[Blue_Wes]

I'm a massive Haye fan, but like Ricey, a lot of what he did was pretty cringey. You all know I'm a big Froch fan, but I found that SKY face to face session he did with Ward an incredibly uncomfortable watch. I do like the grudge matches because of the intensity it creates, and the blustering press conferences, but when they get it wrong, it's an awful watch. Tyson is far more fun in person at the press conferences, than say on Twitter for example.

Also, just about to log off from work, but some food for thought - top ten pound for pound British fighters as by the BBC.

What's our little SZ top ten - can do before and after Froch retired if you like.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/boxing/17691531

 

[GBJ]

What's our little SZ top ten - can do before and after Froch retired if you like.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/boxing/17691531

I'm gunna leave Froch out all together, for 2 reasons... 1) inactivity & 2) retired

This is how I'd have it:

1) Kell Brook
2) Amir Khan
3) Carl Frampton
4) James DeGale
5) Scott Quigg
6) Lee Selby
7) Jamie McDonnell
8) George Groves
9) Tyson Fury
10) Martin Murray

 

[EastStandBlue]

Fury was never as funny as that two weeks or so he converted to Islam.

 

[Ricey]

I'm gunna leave Froch out all together, for 2 reasons... 1) inactivity & 2) retired

This is how I'd have it:

1) Kell Brook
2) Amir Khan
3) Carl Frampton
4) James DeGale
5) Scott Quigg
6) Lee Selby
7) Jamie McDonnell
8) George Groves
9) Tyson Fury
10) Martin Murray

Khan wouldn't make my top 10 but I think that's probably due to my major dislike of the guy.

 

[GBJ]

Khan wouldn't make my top 10 but I think that's probably due to my major dislike of the guy.

I get what you're saying, but you've gotta be impartial. I'm far from Khan's biggest fan, but I can't deny his rank. He's been a world champion, he's been around world level for years, his resume is good, he's got the experience. And most of all, in the 147lb limit, who is there in Britain, who's better than him, excluding (arguably) Brook?

For those reasons, I have to put him in. But that's just my opinion. Everyone has their own lists. And that's from the different organisations, all the way down to the fans. There is no official list, it's all subjective.

 

[duncan bulgaria]

Can't really argue with GBJ there with his pick .

My all time 10 P4P British boxers :

1) Benn
2) Calzaghe
3) Lewis
4) Eubank
5) Prince Naseem
6) Hatton
7) Collins
8) Froch
9) Mcguigan
10) Bruno

 

[duncan bulgaria]

My all time favourite P4P ( i go for the most exciting fighters and ones i remember staying up to watch )

1) Leanord
2) Tyson
3) Hearns
4) Jones Jr
5) Benn
6) Barrera
7) Calzaghe
8) Morales
9) Holyfield
10) Lewis

 

[GBJ]

Can't really argue with GBJ there with his pick .

My all time 10 P4P British boxers :

1) Benn
2) Calzaghe
3) Lewis
4) Eubank
5) Prince Naseem
6) Hatton
7) Collins
8) Froch
9) Mcguigan
10) Bruno

Just out of curiosity, are those your personal top 10 favourites, or who you'd actually say where the best top 10?

I can't actually pick a top 10 of favourites, so I'll just do my top 3 favourites:

1) Hatton
2) Calzaghe
3) Lewis


All time Bristish top 10 is obviously very subjective, especially the running order, but would surely have to include:

1) Lennox Lewis
2) Lloyd Honeyghan
3) Joe Calzaghe
4) Prince Naz
5) Ted Kid Lewis
6) John Conteh
7) Eubank
8) Benn
9) Haye (CW not HW)
10) Hatton

I'd also have honourable mentions for Alan Minter, Henry Cooper & John H Stracey, but I just couldn't put them in.

 

[GBJ]

My all time favourite P4P ( i go for the most exciting fighters and ones i remember staying up to watch )

1) Leanord
2) Tyson
3) Hearns
4) Jones Jr
5) Benn
6) Barrera
7) Calzaghe
8) Morales
9) Holyfield
10) Lewis

Again, good list. I'd have a few of them in mine. My favourite top 10 aren't necessarily who I think were the top 10 best, but here they are:

1) Hatton
2) Tyson
3) Gatti
4) Mayweather
5) Pac
6) RJJ
7) ODLH
8) Hopkins
9) SRL
10) Micky Ward


Compiling a top 10 of all time is ridiculously difficult, to the point, even boxing historians can't agree.

I suppose, in some order;

1) Jack Dempsey
2) Ray Robinson
3) Harry Greb
4) Joe Louis
5) SRL
6) Ali
7) Rocky Marciano
8) Floyd Patterson
9) Hagler
10) Pernell Whittaker

 

[Blue_Wes]

My Current top ten

1) Kell Brook
2) Amir Khan
3) James De Gale
4) Jamie McDonnell
5) Scott Quigg
6) Carl Frampton
7) Lee Selby
8) George Groves
9) Martin Murray
10) Andy Lee

My all time Brit top ten - and this is based on my time watching, so couldn't include some of the older boys:

1) Lewis
2) Hamed
3) Hatton
4) Calzaghe
5) Eubank (this pained me, being a Benn fan and all)
6) Benn
7) Froch
8) Haye
9) McGuigan
10) Khan (I never imagined that he would be there)

 

[Blue_Wes]

My all time favourite P4P ( i go for the most exciting fighters and ones i remember staying up to watch )

1) Leanord
2) Tyson
3) Hearns
4) Jones Jr
5) Benn
6) Barrera
7) Calzaghe
8) Morales
9) Holyfield
10) Lewis

Again, good list. I'd have a few of them in mine. My favourite top 10 aren't necessarily who I think were the top 10 best, but here they are:

1) Hatton
2) Tyson
3) Gatti
4) Mayweather
5) Pac
6) RJJ
7) ODLH
8) Hopkins
9) SRL
10) Micky Ward


Compiling a top 10 of all time is ridiculously difficult, to the point, even boxing historians can't agree.

I suppose, in some order;

1) Jack Dempsey
2) Ray Robinson
3) Harry Greb
4) Joe Louis
5) SRL
6) Ali
7) Rocky Marciano
8) Floyd Patterson
9) Hagler
10) Pernell Whittaker

Tell me about it, I think this difficult for so many reasons, it's hard to be objective, I'd end up going for fighters that excited me, Like Uncle B, the fighters I'd stay up to watch. So I'd end up having a Benn or Hatton over a Mayweather. Plus I tend to only go for fighters that I've seen box. Sure I watched plenty of Ali documentaries and fights on Youtube, not to mention Hearns Hagler fights; but it's not the same as watching/listening to it live, not knowing the outcome, hearing it unfold for the first time unspoiled. Those sort of experience's shape your preferences, knowledge and views on who is better. Plus, ordering fighters above each other, that's hard.

I did try, but when there were four English fighters in the first seven, I knew I wasn't capable haha.

 

[Pubey]

My Current top ten

1) Kell Brook
2) Amir Khan
3) James De Gale
4) Jamie McDonnell
5) Scott Quigg
6) Carl Frampton
7) Lee Selby
8) George Groves
9) Martin Murray
10) Andy Lee

My all time Brit top ten - and this is based on my time watching, so couldn't include some of the older boys:

1) Lewis
2) Hamed
3) Hatton
4) Calzaghe
5) Eubank (this pained me, being a Benn fan and all)
6) Benn
7) Froch
8) Haye
9) McGuigan
10) Khan (I never imagined that he would be there)

Can you explain to pretty ignorant boxing fan why undefeated TF doesn't make your list. Especially compared to someone like Groves.

My all time top 10 is pretty much identical to yours. Maybe Calzaghe and Benn above Hatton.

 

[Blue_Wes]

Can you explain to pretty ignorant boxing fan why undefeated TF doesn't make your list. Especially compared to someone like Groves.

My all time top 10 is pretty much identical to yours. Maybe Calzaghe and Benn above Hatton.

It's the level of opponent for me. It's pretty easy to remain unbeaten if you've only fought fat 40 year old Cruiserweights, and not gone in against the heavyweight equivalent of DeGale early on (he vacated belts and ducked his early oh v oh grudge match in Price - silly in hindsight) and hasn't had two title tilts against a World Class fighter (Froch). If he beats Wlad, then it's a different matter entirely.

Yeah, the hardest thing is trying to know who to place where, I'm the first to admit I find it almost impossible to be impartial, and not allow preferential bias in there, but I did try and be objective.

 

[GBJ]

Can you explain to pretty ignorant boxing fan why undefeated TF doesn't make your list. Especially compared to someone like Groves.

It's the level of opponent for me

As Wes said in a previous post, it's very difficult to actually draw up a list. You normally apply certain criteria & whoever matches it, gets in. But more often than not, your own personal preference towards that criteria, is what will determine if a fighter gets in the list or not. It's always very subjective & you'll rarely find people who'll agree on everything, regarding these type of lists.

Its like judging a round. It's never a shock to see judges' final scores differing, because it always comes down to the individual. So when judging a round, they look for 4 key factors; Aggression, ring generalship, clean/successful Punches landed & defence. It's not often, all 3 judges will agree, on every aspect, in every round, for both fighters.

So the same theory is applied when compiling lists. Obviously there's the ones you can't disagree with, which will generally make up your top 3, but the remaining places are pretty much down to what you prefer individually. The criteria I consider personally, is usually;

- Current status (Champ? Mandatory? Final elim?)
- Resume
- Other fighters in that weight division
- Potential

Ive put Fury in mine, because even though his resume isn't great, I put that more on the fact that the level of opponent at HW isn't great. He's best everyone who's been put in front of him & hasnt ducked anyone, so for those reasons, his resume doesn't bother me. His current status is Mandatory Challenger, for the World Titles, he has got potential (he's still only 25(?), so if he doesn't win against Wlad, that doesn't mean he won't eventually win a title in the future) and lastly, there are no competitors in his division that are better than him, barring Wlad. So for those reasons, he has to go in.

Another example, Wes has got Andy Lee in there. Me personally, Fury is more deserving of a place, based on the criteria I mentioned. Lee is arguably 5th or 6th best, in his division, with very little potential to achieve better than where he is now. But we all see things differently

That is just my take anyway. Again, there's no actual set rules or regulations for it.


Hope this helps

 

[Blue_Wes]

As Wes said in a previous post, it's very difficult to actually draw up a list. You normally apply certain criteria & whoever matches it, gets in. But more often than not, your own personal preference towards that criteria, is what will determine if a fighter gets in the list or not. It's always very subjective & you'll rarely find people who'll agree on everything, regarding these type of lists.

Its like judging a round. It's never a shock to see judges' final scores differing, because it always comes down to the individual. So when judging a round, they look for 4 key factors; Aggression, ring generalship, clean/successful Punches landed & defence. It's not often, all 3 judges will agree, on every aspect, in every round, for both fighters.

So the same theory is applied when compiling lists. Obviously there's the ones you can't disagree with, which will generally make up your top 3, but the remaining places are pretty much down to what you prefer individually. The criteria I consider personally, is usually;

- Current status (Champ? Mandatory? Final elim?)
- Resume
- Other fighters in that weight division
- Potential

Ive put Fury in mine, because even though his resume isn't great, I put that more on the fact that the level of opponent at HW isn't great. He's best everyone who's been put in front of him & hasnt ducked anyone, so for those reasons, his resume doesn't bother me. His current status is Mandatory Challenger, for the World Titles, he has got potential (he's still only 25(?), so if he doesn't win against Wlad, that doesn't mean he won't eventually win a title in the future) and lastly, there are no competitors in his division that are better than him, barring Wlad. So for those reasons, he has to go in.

Another example, Wes has got Andy Lee in there. Me personally, Fury is more deserving of a place, based on the criteria I mentioned. Lee is arguably 5th or 6th best, in his division, with very little potential to achieve better than where he is now. But we all see things differently

That is just my take anyway. Again, there's no actual set rules or regulations for it.


Hope this helps

In addittion to GBJ's excellent and far more comprehensive write up, just my thoughts around Lee; he's been fighting at a much higher level than Fury for a while, losing early on to Chavez Jnr, and having two good bouts winning and losing against Vera, he was told he'd found his ceiling then. He is now the current WBO Middleweight Champion, in which he beat the highly rated and then unbeaten Korobov by stoppage to win, and then got off the canvas twice to earn a very credible draw against another highly rated and unbeaten American in Peter Quillan to retain his belt. In both fights he was expected to lose, even though Kid Chocolate ballsed up his weight. He's an excellent fighter who for me has earned the right to be in the top ten though excellent performances, coming back from adversity and defeats, fighting a higher callibre of opponents and actually achieving something, that for me won over potential, and I did give consideration to the handicap Fury has in a poor division.

For the record, Fury would be just outside my top ten, and like I say, depending on his perfomance against Klitschko could completely change the running.