End of the Union?

[Rusty Shackleford]

I would suggest that we give the sweaties their independence, and tell them they can have all the oil and gas, but we keep all of the Army and Navy (the armed services and the shops). We then go and take all the oil and gas.

 

[Pubey]

I've believed in the Union for years, but the continued appeasing to Nationalists over the borders, in free this, that and the other makes me fume! I think I'd prefer to take our chances and have an English Parliament with English MPs, rather than a profligate amount of Scottish MPs devolving all kinds of stuff particularly north of the border. Open up the trade routes and let's compete with the Scots on a level playing field rather than on a heavily northerly tilted one.

So we'd have to pay monopoly prices on their oil that they know own?

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I would suggest that we give the sweaties their independence, and tell them they can have all the oil and gas, but we keep all of the Army and Navy (the armed services and the shops). We then go and take all the oil and gas.

Give them a choice: oil and gas or special brew.

 

[Neil_F]

It wouldn't be import duties, as they would be the exporter. It would be price they charge for the commodity.

The nation doesn't get to set the oil price. There are a number of different ways revenue is generated from exploration and production, and I presume that Scotland would follow the existing UK system of taxation through the Petroleum Revenue Tax and the Supplementary Charge to Corporation Tax.

The price of the commodity is determined by the market so it wouldn't impact pricing.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

The nation doesn't get to set the oil price. There are a number of different ways revenue is generated from exploration and production, and I presume that Scotland would follow the existing UK system of taxation through the Petroleum Revenue Tax and the Supplementary Charge to Corporation Tax.

The price of the commodity is determined by the market so it wouldn't impact pricing.

Lord Football will be hoping it becomes the Socialist Republic of Scotland.

 

[Rudi Luftwaffe]

If it means no more Billy Connolly then I am all for it.

The bloke is a top drawer **** and if he ever darkens the door of my local he will find himself embarking on a 'World Tour' of the car park - guided by a pair of Victoria Shoes' finest Italian leather slip-ons.

 

[SARF]

yawn.. bore off scotland.. get shot of them dont give them the satisfaction of trying to organise an impossible vote.. who get s to vore , residents, people with scottish grandparents? sean connery who probaly cant point to the place on a map any more and made his fortune at pinewood .. whilst we are busy kicking the jocks out we could arrange a referendum for the shetlands and orkney island to see in they want to be part of england on somewhat more generous terms than the sweatys would offer

 

[londonblue]

I sincerely hope so. Even if we ignore the huge burden that the Celtic fringe places on the finances of England, I would welcome the break up of the artificial construct that is Britain purely on the grounds that the Scots, Welsh and Irish base their entire national identity on their hatred of the English. That's not a healthy recipe for nation building, and is only sustainable by the English constantly appeasing their red headed stepchildren to the north and west. Give them their independence, and build some very high walls.

Firstly, I mis-read your second sentence as "Celtic fringe players", and was about to jump to the defense of Gary Hooper! Secondly, I know it appears from down here that most Scots hate the English, but it simply isn't true. During the world cup I was talking to a Scot at work (believe it or not, he works half the week in Glasgow and half the week in Hatfield) about Scots wanting England to lose. He said that about 80% of Scots actually support England, and he can't believe how the press down here report things. We then got onto the subject of the Scots vs the English in general, and he was saying that the people that tend to be anti English are the Catholic Celtic type supporters (this is not intended to be a generalisation, hence the word "tend") and his view of them is that they shouldn't be living in Scotland anyway and should move to Ireland since they don't support Scotland either; but do support the Republic of Ireland.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

He said that about 80% of Scots actually support England

I'm sorry, but that is (with all due respect to your friend) total and utter bollox. I'm married to a Scot, and whilst I'm fairly sure all of the wife's family love me and see me as their son, that doesn't stop them all being delighted when England lose - regardless of the sport. The sale of Argentina / "ABE" (anyone but England) shirts north of the border suggests that - in a sporting sense - I would guess about 90% of Scots don't support England, and perhaps as many as half cheer on the opposition.

But sport is sport. Politics and economics are quite other things, and most Scots are mature and educated enough not to reduce political discourse to the level of sporting banter. The reason why Salmond kept his powder dry last time out was almost entirely down to the fact that he didn't have a majority in the Scottish parliament, and so he'd have never got a vote through, since all of the other parties (other than, perhaps, the Greens) are pro-Union. As it turns out, this was a massive stroke of luck for Salmond. Much of the SNP's previous campaigning for independence has centred on the fact that Scotland would find itself on the "arc of prosperity" towards the northern end of Europe, and that it could become a strong smaller economy like that of Iceland or Ireland.

As you might imagine, that now doesn't look like a terribly appealing prospect for most Scots. Whilst Salmond can still point to Norway, theirs is not a terribly good correlation; the Norwegians are not in the EU, they have greater reserves of oil and gas which they have husbanded more carefully, and they also have greater natural resources (e.g. wood / pulp / paper, and fish).

Salmond is no fool - in fact, he ranks alongside Cameron as the smartest and sharpest political operator in these islands of ours (and he's been doing it for longer than Dave). He won't call a referendum any ealier than 2014 - and, unless the Irish and Icelandic economies are well on the road to recovery by then, he may not even risk it then.

As for who would front a "no" campaign, you'd need an old red or two (perhaps someone from fitba' - Sir Alec Ferguson, maybe? Not beyond the realms of possibility; or maybe Craig Brown; or otherwise, possibly Brown, who's less unpopular north of the border than south) for the central belt, and Charlie Kennedy to cover the Highlands & Islands (where he remains hugely popular).

the Tories have always struggled in Scotland to get seats, whereas there are large tracts of Labour safes.

Point of order: until the end of the 1950s, vast swathes of Scotland - including most of the Borders, Edinburgh, Fife, Perthshire, Aberdeenshire and the Highlands - voted Tory. Scotland was as Tory as it was Labour. At the time, the only truly safe Labour seats were in Glasgow and the west of the Central Belt. Indeed, as recently as 1955, Scotland returned more Tory MPs (36) than Labour MPs (34).

That changed gradually between the beginning of the 1960s and the 1980s, and then seismically post-Thatcher. It's Thatcher who did for the Tory party in Scotland; Thatcher is practically a swear-word up there. Thatcher is blamed for the closing down of the steel, coal and shipbuilding industries - the heart of Scottish manufacturing and engineering. After the 1983 general election, there were 21 Scottish Tory MPs. After the 1987 election, there were 10. Blair then killed them off - famously, the Tories were wiped off the Scottish map in 1997. They still only have one Tory MP up there now (in Dumfriesshire).

* * *

As for there being "large tracts of Labour safes", I think last Thursday's result proves that no longer to be true. As any observer of Scottish politics would tell you, it is almost beyond comprehension that these seats, all in the western half of the central belt (where, as the saying went, you could put a red rosette on a monkey and he'd still win) are no longer "Labour safes" - and yet, self-evidently, they aren't, since they all have SNP MSPs:

Glasgow Anniesland
Glasgow Cathcart
Glasgow Kelvin
Glasgow Shettleston
Glasgow Southside
Paisley
Airdrie & Shotts
Cumbernauld & Kilsyth
East Kilbride
Strathkelvin & Bearsden
Clydebank & Milngavie
Clydesdale

(and, as an aside - over in Fife, even Kirkcaldy voted SNP; bit of a blow for Gordon, that)

Matt

 

[Thorpe Groyney]

The simple solution is for the Westminster government to call for a referendum right now. As it stands, the Scottish First Minister can only make a request to the Prime Minister for one, but the PM can call one at any time. Call it now, hold it within the next few months, and that's it, independence scuttled for a generation or so.

 

[osymandus]

Also the Norwegians have already "unoffically" stated they will assist Scotland if they gain independence.

 

[canveyshrimper]

So instead of being part of the UK they become part of Norway? Or is the promise of Norwegian support proof that Scotland couldn't stand alone financially?

 

[osymandus]

So instead of being part of the UK they become part of Norway? Or is the promise of Norwegian support proof that Scotland couldn't stand alone financially?

Lol , well any country that supports another until it can become either independent or a partner which benefits both sides . With more cultural background and in common , it would hardly be seen as a weakness . We shall see . All i know is its unofficial , and the other Scandinavian countries may come involved (but not in a Union manner more trade agreements ). Now what do both countries have access to hmm ;)