Battle of the (lack of) political leadership - 1992 v 2013?

[Tangled up in Blue]

Despite what you have clearly misread about Thatcher, she came from a Working Class background

We all know you're an uber-Thatcherite but I'm not prepared to let this gross distortion (or outright untruth) pass without comment.

It's fairly well-known that Thatcher was a grocer's daughter (in fact her father actually owned two grocer shops in Grantham), which by pretty much any sociological yardstick,would make her background (lower) middle-class.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher

 

[Benfleet A1]

We all know you're an uber-Thatcherite but I'm not prepared to let this gross distortion (or outright untruth) pass without comment.

It's fairly well-known that Thatcher was a grocer's daughter (in fact her father actually owned two grocer shops in Grantham), which by pretty much any sociological yardstick,would make her background (lower) middle-class.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher

Better that than a son of a plastic socialist/communist who has never done a days work in his life.

 

[superblue24]

We all know you're an uber-Thatcherite but I'm not prepared to let this gross distortion (or outright untruth) pass without comment.

It's fairly well-known that Thatcher was a grocer's daughter (in fact her father actually owned two grocer shops in Grantham), which by pretty much any sociological yardstick,would make her background (lower) middle-class.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher

You make it sound like he inherited the family business! He started out as a Grocers' apprentice, worked bloody hard until he was able to open his own greengrocer. By my estimation a greengrocers' assistant would absolutely be of "Working Class" and did well to break into Middle Class.

Of course, I'd expect you to show nothing but contempt for a working man's achievement and desire to work his bollox off to provide a better life for his family just because he fathered someone you hated with a passion. But I guess that just shows (yet again) your true colours as the vindictive self-righteous peasant that you are.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Better that than a son of a plastic socialist/communist who has never done a days work in his life.

If you're referring to Ralph Miliband,he was a refugee from Nazi Germany-who fought in the WW2 for his adopted country- and was a hard-working,brillant University lecturer, who I had the privilige of listening to, back in the 70's.
He was a Marxist,btw.

 

[Benfleet A1]

As I said, never done a days work in his life.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

You make it sound like he inherited the family business! He started out as a Grocers' apprentice, worked bloody hard until he was able to open his own greengrocer. By my estimation a greengrocers' assistant would absolutely be of "Working Class" and did well to break into Middle Class.

Of course, I'd expect you to show nothing but contempt for a working man's achievement and desire to work his bollox off to provide a better life for his family just because he fathered someone you hated with a passion. But I guess that just shows (yet again) your true colours as the vindictive self-righteous peasant that you are.

The notion that Maggie Thatcher came from a working class background because her father might have done so, is somewhat disingenous. to say the least.

My own father was a builder,who most certainly came from a working class background.The fact that I spent a couple of summer holidays working on his building sites, while I was still at school, hardly entitles me to claim a working class background for myself.Nor would I seek to do so.

Unlike you, however,I have only the greatest respect for those from a working class background, who've managed to succeed in life-as my father did.
Also, unlike you, I don't refer to people who I might disagree with, as peasants.

 

[superblue24]

The notion that Maggie Thatcher came from a working class background because her father might have done so, is somewhat disengenous. to say the least.

My own father was a builder,who most certainly came from a working class background.The fact that I spent a couple of summer holidays working on his building sites, while I was still at school, hardly entitles me to claim a working class background for myself.Nor would I seek to do so.

Unlike you, however,I have only the greatest respect for those from a working class background, who've managed to succeed in life.Also, unlike you, I don't refer to people who I might disagree with, as peasants.

You can take that back, Barna. I have nothing but respect for those who work hard and get on in life. I feel utter disdain to those who shirk, scrounge and/or moan needlessly.

Perhaps if you're lucky, I might retract my "peasant" comment as it was a little needless. I notice you didn't disagree with the rest :smile:

 

[Benfleet A1]

Unlike you, however,I have only the greatest respect for those from a working class background, who've managed to succeed in life.Also, unlike you, I don't refer to people who I might disagree with, as peasants.

No, you prefer to consider them supporters of war crimes and ethnic cleansing or, in my case, feral rats. BTW I quite liked the feral rat tag, you should really use it more often.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

No, you prefer to consider them supporters of war crimes and ethnic cleansing or, in my case, feral rats. BTW I quite liked the feral rat tag, you should really use it more often.

As I told you (at the time)I only used it the once because I couldn't spell neanderthal without resoring to a dictionary.Sorry.

As far as my own attitude to the working class is concerned, I've always thought there were basically two types.

What Marx referrred to as the "lumpen proletariat" and those like my parents (and I suspect your good self) who are part of what I (and others) would call the "respectable" working class.

As Oscar Wilde said: "We're all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."

 

[applelover]

It's reassuring to know that despite our differences we can all agree that the current political class can be collectively described as a 'chocolate teapot'. It's not surprising that farage is gaining ground. He actually appears to have conviction. I quite like the guy but would never vote for ukip as I don't believe that their social and economic positions are viable.

I was watching a speech where he tells an anecdote about being interviewed after being elected to the euro parliament

Interviwer - now that you've been elected are you ready for a life of champagne receptions, fine dinning, and exclusive parties?
Farage - yes, I've always lived like that.

Classic :)

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

You can take that back, Barna. I have nothing but respect for those who work hard and get on in life. I feel utter disdain to those who shirk, scrounge and/or moan needlessly.

Perhaps if you're lucky, I might retract my "peasant" comment as it was a little needless. I notice you didn't disagree with the rest :smile:

I'm willing to retract the remark, with one major caveat.

It would appear that, like me, you respect what Boy George has called the "strivers" in society.Unlike him however, (and yourself), I find it morally repugnant to contrast this group with the so-called "shirkers" on benefits.

First of all, because it's (intentionally) socially divisive.

Secondly,because it does a dis-service to all those hard working people on benefits, working part-time, because there's precious little full time work out there.

Thirdly, because it insults all those young people (and others) who are desperately looking for full time work in a contracting labour market, usually offering only derisory wages for unskilled workers.

I await your "peasant" retraction.

 

[OldBlueLady]

Thirdly, because it insults all those young people (and others) who are desperately looking for full time work in a contracting labour market, usually offering only derisory wages for unskilled workers.

On that, I saw a programme over the weekend where one of the universities is working on robot fruit pickers, which mimic the human action in twisting fruit from trees or plants. We're going to have a whole load of previously happy low paid (possibly immigrant) workers to support if we carry on producing robots to do more jobs humans do.

 

[superblue24]

I'm willing to retract the remark, with one major caveat.

It would appear that, like me, you respect what Boy George has called the "strivers" in society.Unlike him however, (and yourself), I find it morally repugnant to contrast this group with the so-called "shirkers" on benefits.

First of all, because it's (intentionally) socially divisive.

Secondly,because it does a dis-service to all those hard working people on benefits, working part-time, because there's precious little full time work out there.

Thirdly, because it insults all those young people (and others) who are desperately looking for full time work in a contracting labour market, usually offering only derisory wages for unskilled workers.

I await your "peasant" retraction.

I think the words\meanings I used and who they apply to in society is obvious to all. You are trying to manipulate me into conceding a point (or set of points in this case) which you know damn well that I do not subscribe to! I respect any man or woman who works and provides for his or her family with or without benefits as a supplement, irrespective of what class they occupy, as I do those who strive with ambition to better their situation. I have a lack of respect for those who sit on benefits or inherit money (yes, including upper class) and choose not to work through general bone-idleness.

With regards to those out of work and actively trying hard to get any kind of work they can, I applaud their efforts and respect their desire to get into work. Those who go down the job centre refusing work for any kind of reason they can muster from one week to the next are not respectable types in my eyes.

That is as much clarity as I wish to provide on the matter.

 

[Mad Cyril]

Having seen him speak at many Tribune rallies,I can confirm that Neil Kinnock was an excellent orator.His vilification in the right-wing press,is of course,the same tactic currently being displayed towards Ed Miliband.

Neil Kinnock was great in that Tracey Ullman pop video.

 

[londonblue]

Was he actually though? I can't believe that the Treasury can summon the Prime Minister and give him a dressing down.

I didn't say they gave him a dressing down. I said they gave him an economics lesson.

The UK Statistics Authority did issue a rebuke over his use of "deficit" and "debt". Are you not suggesting that the PM was dishonest rather than ignorant of the difference?

In this instance he showed ignorance, and also arrogance. The fact that he was prepared to make such statements at PMQs is IMO arrogant. He plays fast and loose with the facts and truth far too often for my liking. Other times he has been shown to be an outright liar, but in this instance I grant you it was "only" ignorance and arrogance.