Anthony Grants Red Card Chat

[Magnum PI]

hang on. did the linesman see the Grant push because the ref is looking the other way?
soft sending off but you see it all the time

we won both games so lets dwell on that and granty only misses two league games

 

[Up the Shrimpers]

hang on. did the linesman see the Grant push because the ref is looking the other way?
soft sending off but you see it all the time

we won both games so lets dwell on that and granty only misses two league games

I think the lino was already coming onto the pitch as he could see a mass brawl starting and even in the stand we could see Grant push their player, the lino would of had a good view of it. No way anyone could have seen the stamp on Grant's foot though, very sneaky.

 

[Fish]

your point is that you are always right i suspect but no mention that the whole saga was actuated by Grant seeing a young Kane totally gone through to start off with oh the shock that he should make any type of plea for retribution get real mate its not all what you read some common sense also applies and your next quote can be last word its what i think your used too

Common sense is
- recognising the ref has it in hand and is about to deal with it
- having the maturity to realise that taking retribution into your own hands is only going to make the situation worse
- knowing that if you decide to hit someone you're going to let your team mates down by making them play with one less player for the rest of the game

Common sense is not allowing players to take their own out on opposition players jus because you sympathise with their frustration.

So once again, you';re right, common sense applies.

You clearly have no experience of controlling a competitive high stakes match where feelings and expectations run high. Give players an inch and they'll take a yard. Allowing players to take it out on each other on the basis that your 'common sense' tells you that they are only naturally upset at a foul that's just happened is the short route to losing control of a game and, sure as eggs is eggs, lots more trouble later in the game.

 

[bazzashrimper]

Any contact with Grant and he normally hits the deck. I wonder if this is because he feels he has a reaction like this one in him - but after a stamp on the foot it's just plain stupid to fall to the floor!

Also - I think this one was probably bubbling over from Saturday - in the last minute when grant won a free kick on the edge of the Oxford box there was a similar reaction towards him from the Oxford players.

 

[Portuguese Shrimper]

Wasn't there a comparible situation a while back! I think it was Gunter of Cardiff standing on the foot of a
Nottingham Forest player but not spotted by the referee, ending in the FA taking action and banning Gunter for 3 matches. Admittedly though the game was live on TV.

 

[Bluepen]

Common sense is
- recognising the ref has it in hand and is about to deal with it
- having the maturity to realise that taking retribution into your own hands is only going to make the situation worse
- knowing that if you decide to hit someone you're going to let your team mates down by making them play with one less player for the rest of the game

Common sense is not allowing players to take their own out on opposition players jus because you sympathise with their frustration.

So once again, you';re right, common sense applies.

You clearly have no experience of controlling a competitive high stakes match where feelings and expectations run high. Give players an inch and they'll take a yard. Allowing players to take it out on each other on the basis that your 'common sense' tells you that they are only naturally upset at a foul that's just happened is the short route to losing control of a game and, sure as eggs is eggs, lots more trouble later in the game.

Yes your right i have no idea what it is like to control a Hockey match but did manage to play a very good level of football
so have an idea from a football players perspective about high stake games
Did i ever mention Grant should not have been sent off.....no
Did the ref send Grant off for making any type of appeal before he got stamped on ? lets see the report but i doubt it.
Did Grant take any form of retribution before being stamped on ......no at least not in the refs mind who was handling the game not you.but lets see the report
Did i ever say it was okay for players to take it out on each other ....no.
Did i ever say that i felt the stamp on Grants foot from a player who ran 10 yards to do it was a coward and a sneaky one i might add...yes
I have my own opinion and must respect you have yours .
i am not going to put you down by suggesting you clearly have not competed in high level football (because you may well of done ) and i find your remarks very undermining and picky of my opinions so i am keeping my opinion of what i saw
rightly or wrongly in your eyes cos no one really cares anyway except me an you.
you have said a lot of things from a refs point of view having had the advantage of slow motion please take me step by step as to how you would have dealt with it and why, based on the speed of how it all happened and presuming you or the linesman never saw the sneaky stamp on Grants foot which made him WRONGLY react

 

[Fish]

Yes your right i have no idea what it is like to control a Hockey match but did manage to play a very good level of football
so have an idea from a football players perspective about high stake games
Did i ever mention Grant should not have been sent off.....no
Did the ref send Grant off for making any type of appeal before he got stamped on ? lets see the report but i doubt it.
Did Grant take any form of retribution before being stamped on ......no at least not in the refs mind who was handling the game not you.but lets see the report
Did i ever say it was okay for players to take it out on each other ....no.
Did i ever say that i felt the stamp on Grants foot from a player who ran 10 yards to do it was a coward and a sneaky one i might add...yes
I have my own opinion and must respect you have yours .
i am not going to put you down by suggesting you clearly have not competed in high level football (because you may well of done ) and i find your remarks very undermining and picky of my opinions so i am keeping my opinion of what i saw
rightly or wrongly in your eyes cos no one really cares anyway except me an you.
you have said a lot of things from a refs point of view having had the advantage of slow motion please take me step by step as to how you would have dealt with it and why, based on the speed of how it all happened and presuming you or the linesman never saw the sneaky stamp on Grants foot which made him WRONGLY react

Sorry you've found my remarks undermining, that's not my intention. I've been picky on the difference between appealing for a foul and appealing for a card. That's because footballers in general seem to think it's alright to continuously appeal for everything, which I accept I'm in the minority in thinking this isn't acceptable. Didn't m,ean to make you feel undermined by that, sorry.

Appealing for fouls is something that (in hockey anyway) we are trained to stamp out early in a game, because it's so critical to managing the players and the match. The Grant incident on Tuesday night is a classic illustration of why it's important to do it, because as soon as Grant started appealing at the moment of the foul, the rest of what happened was sort of inevitable.

So, to answer your question directly, what would I have done in the ref's shoes ON THAT INCIDENT? If I'd been 'Quantum Leaped' into the ref's boots 5 seconds before the foul on Ferdinand, it's impossible to account for all of the if's and buts, but I've had a stab at outlining what I would have done, based on what I've been trained to do on high level hockey (by high level, I'm talking about the hockey equivalent of League 1 in the pyramid).

Immediately on the foul, big whistle, stop time. There was no melee around Ferdinand, the physio can deal with him so my first priority would be to deal with the player who's done the foul. My personal opinion is that he should have got a red (maybe a yellow in hockey, with a 10 minute sin-bin). In this incident, a quicker card would stand a better chance of defusing Southend protests, thereby keeping Grant out of trouble. However, let's assume that he starts chirping before I can get the red out (it looks like that would have happened).

At this point, Grant is now appealing at me, so I tell him to be quiet. I'm now looking at him so it's less likely that someone at that point would come in and stamp on his foot (if they do, then that'll be a red too). If Grant specifically tells me I should be carding someone, he'll get a yellow card from me. Whether that then stops other players marching in before I can deal with him is again a moot point. I expect not, because that's to do with player discipline more than ref control at that particular point. But at least I'm now looking in the right direction to see what happens.

So, it's likely that the initial tackle would have been a red, but players probably would have got in with appealing before I got the chance to administer it. So much of what happened may well have happened anyway.

Why? Well, that's the key point.

This all happened around the 55th minute. Football refs seem to allow players to mouth off at them far too much in my opinion (and in the opinion of most people who have coached and assessed me as an umpire). It's endemic throughout the game and to be fair to Tuesday's ref I'm not sure that taking a sterner approach to it for this one game would have made enough difference. But from viewing the replay of the incident, it's pretty clear to me that the ref has not done an effective enough job earlier in the game in discouraging the players from getting involved. Take the first opportunity you get to tell players to not appeal for decisions (or worse still, cards) and deal with them firmly.

I don't know if football refs have all of these tools in their box, but some of the techniques I use before we get anywhere near cards for appealing include:
- quietly telling the individual player to stop appealing
- giving a quick glare and/or "shhh" signal at the player when they are appealing
- having a word with the captains to get their team to stop appealing
- 'reversing' decisions (i.e. having given a free kick one way, awarding it the other for dissent - and signalling that it's for dissent to all players are clear why the free kick has been reversed)

If players don't get the message after all that,then they deserve what they get from then on.

Given there was obviously spill-over from Saturday's game, and the general attitude between players and referees which is the product of football as a sport not getting to grips with dissent over many years, I'm not sure that taking any of the above steps on a single Tuesday night Cup game would have made too much difference.

 

[Bluepen]

Fish
that was a strong and interesting viewpoint and i thank you for the time and effort you gave towards it
and have no more to say on the matter cheers

 

[BLUEBLOOD]

Good debate Bluepen & Fish :clap:

 

[philtalkin]

Forget dishing out cards. The ref should have kicked their player in the goolies. Thus Immediately diffusing the situation. Thoughts?

 

[OxfordUtdFan]

There's some fair stuff on here and some tribalism. It was a handbags event in a JPT game...........:omg:

By the way anyone got a slo mo video of Ryan Hall doing his falling over for no apparent reason - there's a few incidents to choose from........

 

[Sutton Who]

Anyone got a slow mo of Ryan Hall's goals in both games :hilarious:

 

[davewebbsbrain]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/15666688.stm

Shows it in real time....Granty being stamped on and reacting like anyone would. I still don't see the headbutt and I think there is a great shout for an appeal.

Also, seeing the original tackle on Ferdinand in real time leads me to believe the ref should have send that player off too.....Shocking tackle and could have seriously damaged Ferdinand

 

[Norwichshrimper]

There's some fair stuff on here and some tribalism. It was a handbags event in a JPT game...........:omg:

By the way anyone got a slo mo video of Ryan Hall doing his falling over for no apparent reason - there's a few incidents to choose from........

Footballer in falling over when fouled shocker...........................grow up

 

[1966 and all that]

Sorry to go on about it, but any sign the Oxford No 6 will be 'retro red-carded'?