Admin Fees Revealed

[GBJ]

In addition I am not certain how much credibility I want to give to your views after you revealed a couple of weeks back that you only wondered where all the money had gone because you didn't know that football league teams don't get parachute payments when they are relegated.
Are you mad? You're quite obviously taking my question and twisting it round. It was a quick qustion, not a massive inquest. It'd never even occured to me before and had no bearing on my thoughts about the money. End of.

As for your analysis of the P&L account, unfortunately you have clearly not yet reached a level in life where you have encountered things like "sundry expenses" (Sundry i know. Sundry expenses in a football club, i do not know. You see i've always known sundries to be small insignificant items that don't really amount to much. But the bill stands at £144k, so i'm guessing it's not small stuff. And why the sudden change in 1 year. It almost doubles. I thought it was obvious i wasn't asking for a definition of a word. So then, please feel free to explain just what they entail) to enable you to know what the phrase means, and consequently I'm afraid I doubt that you have sufficient knowledge to dissect anything financial and deliver meaningful comment on it. Erm, you have no evidence to show either way what my capabilities are.

Stick to what you know and you won't make yourself look daft. Sorry if that seems harsh and I don't mean to be rude, but this board has plenty of people who love to pass judgement on stuff they assume must be happening when in reality they actually know naff all.

So basically you're saying in this last paragraph, that unless anyone is 100% aware of the facts, they shouldn't comment on that topic? A discussion board this is, a place for you to try and lord it over people, it is not.

Please feel free to jump down off of that high horse, and act like a grown up. This is the second time in what, a week? where you have tried to ridicule my posts. Oh dear.

 

[Firestorm]

Can't really understand that tbh.

I didn't say i'd uncovered some mad conspiracy. I was one of many questioning why are we skint. The main response was "to the running of the club", and "admin fees". So, here they are for all to see.

I still think some of those figures seem high though, and like i said it's understandable we're in financial turmoil.

Which of the figures seem high to you and why ?

I agree some of the numbers are quite big, but I don't know how they compare with other organisations.

 

[Mick]

As already stated, these figures relate to the period from 52 months ago up to 28 months ago. I'd guess the financial situation has changed somewhat since then; I'm not sure you can glean much from these old figures nor should you read too much into them.

 

[Jam_Man]

So basically you're saying in this last paragraph, that unless anyone is 100% aware of the facts, they shouldn't comment on that topic? A discussion board this is, a place for you to try and lord it over people, it is not.

Please feel free to jump down off of that high horse, and act like a grown up. This is the second time in what, a week? where you have tried to ridicule my posts. Oh dear.

Fbm's reply was a little curt and patronising but to be fair you have produced a list of figures that you dont fully understand and then made the statement its no wonder we are in financial turmoil.

If you dont understand the figures and have no comparison to make how can you form the opinion that those expenses are the reason we are in turmoil ?

Those costs could be less than other clubs for all we know and I think its dangerous to take just one set of figures taken out of context (ie they are old) and make grand statements about our current financial problems.

If you had just posted them and asked for opinions then the responses you would have got would have been far more balanced...

 

[fbm]

So basically you're saying in this last paragraph, that unless anyone is 100% aware of the facts, they shouldn't comment on that topic? A discussion board this is, a place for you to try and lord it over people, it is not.

Please feel free to jump down off of that high horse, and act like a grown up. This is the second time in what, a week? where you have tried to ridicule my posts. Oh dear.

I wasn't ridiculing - I was recommending you stick to what you know otherwise you will run the risk of making yourself look stupid - as you have done for what, the second time in a week?

Now - if you had said something like

"Hey guys, I found these, I don't really know how to read company accounts but some of these figures seem quite high to me. Can anyone interpret these for me and explain what "sundry items" may be? Thanks."

then you would have had a totally different response and then I - and others - would have been helpful.

However, you have immediately made a massive judgement (in your opening post you said something like "no wonder we're in trouble", which at least indicates that you have had some lightbulb moment and discovered the missing millions) when you clearly - by your own words - have no understanding as to what these figures mean.

So, as I said before, I'm not being rude and I'm certainly not ridiculing - but I think you should perhaps consider approaching things from a different angle or you will just not get taken seriously. Being less judgemental until you know and understand the facts will help. I am actually trying to help you out here, believe it or not.

 

[fbm]

Fbm's reply was a little curt and patronising but to be fair you have produced a list of figures that you dont fully understand and then made the statement its no wonder we are in financial turmoil.

If you dont understand the figures and have no comparison to make how can you form the opinion that those expenses are the reason we are in turmoil ?

Those costs could be less than other clubs for all we know and I think its dangerous to take just one set of figures taken out of context (ie they are old) and make grand statements about our current financial problems.

If you had just posted them and asked for opinions then the responses you would have got would have been far more balanced...

On reflection, maybe and if so I apologise to gbjnr if it came across that way.

I have though had my fill of people who know clearly not anywhere near enough making fashionable and bandwagon judgements on things they actually know so little about.

 

[Jam_Man]

On reflection, maybe and if so I apologise to gbjnr if it came across that way.

I have though had my fill of people who know clearly not anywhere near enough making fashionable and bandwagon judgements on things they actually know so little about.

Fully understand the frustrations!

 

[Somerset Ex-TTB]

No ones mentioned the increase of £0.5m in other expenses in the cost of sales. Could this include transfer fees??

Other than that, there is nothing too bad there. The depreciation on F&F would indicate a very large investment in 2006 or a change in the accounting policy.

Any idea what that could have been? Turnstyles/light bulbs for the scoreboard?

 

[canveyshrimper]

No ones mentioned the increase of £0.5m in other expenses in the cost of sales. Could this include transfer fees??

Other than that, there is nothing too bad there. The depreciation on F&F would indicate a very large investment in 2006 or a change in the accounting policy.

Any idea what that could have been? Turnstyles/light bulbs for the scoreboard?

Fixtures & fittings can cover a whole range of items, from say computers in the ticket office, refurbishment of bars, Blues lounge, turnstiles, Geoff King's well upholstered executive chair are just a few I can think of right away.

 

[Reg Martin]

On reflection, maybe and if so I apologise to gbjnr if it came across that way.

I have though had my fill of people who know clearly not anywhere near enough making fashionable and bandwagon judgements on things they actually know so little about.

as an act of pennance I vote you volunteer to explain why the next set of published accounts will show we owe £2m to the taxman

 

[Davros]

To do that someone would have to post up the BS along with the P&L really, but even then, a breakdown of creditors isnt necesarily going to be there.

I dont think the bank charges are that bad tbh, for a company to be turning over £8m+ and paying less than 1% of it to their bank means we must actually have a pretty good agreement IMO. think how bad it might be if we ran an overdraft!

 

[philtalkin]

It's not !

The only thing that's stationary is the progress on the new ground.

Remember "e" for envelope.

My Science teacher was arguing that it's impossible to be hit by a stationary object.

Quickly changed his tune when I smacked him in the head with a stapler.

 

[jamesmut2000]

To the tune of £60k?

Unless you have the figures to hand to question the accounts I would suggest you have no idea what the bank charges are for - and I get the impression you don't.

As others on here have stated those figures do not look out of the ordinary.

 

[EastStandBlue]

Other than that, there is nothing too bad there. The depreciation on F&F would indicate a very large investment in 2006 or a change in the accounting policy.

Any idea what that could have been? Turnstyles/light bulbs for the scoreboard?

It could point towards what's known as "Dressing" the accounts.

Whilst it's technically "illegal" when done on a grand scale, it's a way of manipulating the accounts to be more favourable towards the business. For example, if we say that our furniture has depreciated by £200k or so in a year, it's money off of our net profit and, therefor, not taxed as heavily on it. My understanding of Account Dressing is limited strictly to regular businesses though and not as far as football clubs, so I couldn't comment on it or pass any judgement.

In regular business though, depreciation of fixed assett's is a rife area to manipulate for your own benefit, as it's pretty much down to your own interpretation.

 

[Hotman]

Assuming FFE excludes anything in relation to Roots Hall (in RHL) and is just office equipment, shop fittings etc, £250k dep'n in a year is ridiculous - meaning cost must be anywhere from £750k upwards??

Also the doubling of this depreciation is eitehr a change in accounting policy, or (more likely) spunking far more than £250k in fittings... new club shop perhaps?

So FBM - grays blue junior was indeed correct to question it. Also the sundry expenses - I fully agree with him, what the hell is it? (And I know what normally gets put into "sundry expenses" by my staff - not 140k on a business of this size).

You tell him not to comment on something he isn't competent to comment on - look in the mirror fella.

 

[Hotman]

It could point towards what's known as "Dressing" the accounts.

Whilst it's technically "illegal" when done on a grand scale, it's a way of manipulating the accounts to be more favourable towards the business. For example, if we say that our furniture has depreciated by £200k or so in a year, it's money off of our net profit and, therefor, not taxed as heavily on it. My understanding of Account Dressing is limited strictly to regular businesses though and not as far as football clubs, so I couldn't comment on it or pass any judgement.

In regular business though, depreciation of fixed assett's is a rife area to manipulate for your own benefit, as it's pretty much down to your own interpretation.

No, depreciation is disallowable for corp tax, anyway i'd expect SUFC to have significant losses carried forward to make this a moot point anyway.

 

[GBJ]

I didn't say i'd uncovered some mad conspiracy.
I still think some of those figures seem high though, and like i said it's understandable we're in financial turmoil.

If you dont understand the figures and have no comparison to make how can you form the opinion that those expenses are the reason we are in turmoil ?

Yes I admit, i don't have any other figures from other clubs to compare to, and of course these figures could be fairly normal. However, i still think they seem high. If they turned out to be fairly normal, and on par with other teams, i'd say OK, fair enough.

However, you have immediately made a massive judgement (in your opening post you said something like "no wonder we're in trouble", which at least indicates that you have had some lightbulb moment and discovered the missing millions)

As the top line says, i never claimed to unearth a mad plot

but I think you should perhaps consider approaching things from a different angle or you will just not get taken seriously.

If a few people, with their own pre-concieved thoughts don't take me seriously, it's not the end of the world. Each to their own as they say.

Being less judgemental until you know and understand the facts will help.

Maybe so, but my first reaction to some of these bills was (and is still is) they seem high. Like i said before, if there was proof that these were normal amounts and not to disimilar to other clubs i'd understand it fully.

On reflection, maybe and if so I apologise to gbjnr if it came across that way.

Apology accepted

x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x

 

[Swiss Tony]

x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x

Chip off the old block GBJ,lots of respect chap.

 

[Reg Martin]

Purchases are NOT the same as Depreciation. Depreciation is a yearly thing where the accounting concept on Prudence is taken into account and they Depreciate the value of their fixed assets as they see suitable. So what has actually happened is that the value of the furniture, fixtures and equipment has decreased by £250k (NO money has changed hands).

Sundry basically means 'other' (I am 99% sure of this).

Can't comment much on the others as I don't know the expenses that occur on a daily basis of a football club.

That last comment is a good point - It's hard to know whether any or all the figures in the accounts are unusually high or not, without comparing them to other clubs of similar size

 

[fbm]

Assuming FFE excludes anything in relation to Roots Hall (in RHL) and is just office equipment, shop fittings etc, £250k dep'n in a year is ridiculous - meaning cost must be anywhere from £750k upwards??
Also the doubling of this depreciation is eitehr a change in accounting policy, or (more likely) spunking far more than £250k in fittings... new club shop perhaps?

So FBM - grays blue junior was indeed correct to question it. Also the sundry expenses - I fully agree with him, what the hell is it? (And I know what normally gets put into "sundry expenses" by my staff - not 140k on a business of this size).

You tell him not to comment on something he isn't competent to comment on - look in the mirror fella.

Ah, assuming again... so you must of course be right. After all, the figures have been public for some time now and far more knowledgeable people than you or I have analysed them and wouldn't have picked anything up, would they?

The trouble with assumptions is that if the original assumption is wide of the mark then every logical conclusion drawn from that assumption will be wrong as well.

Which is why, when I look in the mirror, I can see someone carrying a few extra pounds who is certainly far from perfect but who at least tries NOT to make judgements about people or events based on assumptions which then run the risk of coming back to make you look daft, as graysbluejnr did.

I'm also not afraid to admit I'm wrong and apologise if necessary; I have done to gbj both on this thread and by PM (which I'm sure he will confirm) for appearing rude, curt, patronising or whatever. But my opinion hasn't changed and we are all entitled to our opinion. Therefore when someone makes a judgement based on totally incorrect information following another incorrect assumption, then I'm afraid I tend to take that persons future views and comments with a rather large pinch of salt. This is especially the case when the thread starts with the phrase "Admin fees revealed" which indicates some sort of revelation, and then the next line contains the words

quite frankly, it's no wonder why we're in trouble.

which at the very least is a judgement that has been made when absolutely no fine detail about the headline figures shown in the fees are known.

Questioning is one thing, which I have no problem with; passing judgement without the requisite knowledge or information to make that judgement is another matter.