Very good debate Stephen Fry debates

[osymandus]

Is the Catholic church a force for good ?

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid49309340001?bclid=48759416001&bctid=49381406001

 

[pickledseal]

There were some good points raised, but as a debate goes, it wasn't great.
Audience were very biased, I think the Secular Society had rounded up their troops guessing by reaction to Christopher Hitchens and the questions offered up. Additionally, Archbishop John Onaiyekan was well out of his depth.
The Catholic Church does have some very big black marks against it's name (but was it totally necessary to spend so long on the crusades for goodness sake?!?) but equally it does do a lot of good. Perhaps it should do more though, it could provide far better in some areas.

 

[osymandus]

There were some good points raised, but as a debate goes, it wasn't great.

Did just see on teh website it is an edited version !

Audience were very biased, I think the Secular Society had rounded up their troops guessing by reaction to Christopher Hitchens and the questions offered up. Additionally, Archbishop John Onaiyekan was well out of his depth.
The Catholic Church does have some very big black marks against it's name (but was it totally necessary to spend so long on the crusades for goodness sake?!?) but equally it does do a lot of good. Perhaps it should do more though, it could provide far better in some areas.

I think that's the point they were trying to make about the "good" they do . Its conditional and it is very much restricted by dogmatic prinicple of the catholic church. Its supposed to be the moral leading light on earth and the pope infallible (being Jesus direct link to earth). The evils do included removing the ability for people to protect themselves from sexually transmitted diseases and enforced poverty and education.and indoctrinating people . Also one of many religions that believe adamently they are the only truth and have enforced it.

This isnt an "attack" on Christianity but the structure of the Holy Roman Church. 2000 people from the secular society do they have that many members , and the questions are just from an educated peoples .

I must confess i was horrified that Catholic church polices were anti Semitic up until 1964 !

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Is the Catholic church a force for good ?

Er-No.Next? :)

 

[Mad Cyril]

Is Stephen Fry a national treasure or a pompous, self important ****?

 

[Ron Manager]

Is Stephen Fry a national treasure or a pompous, self important ****?

National treasure, next question.......

 

[osymandus]

National treasure, next question.......

National well educated and inspiring treasure (loved the woman in the video who said she was arguing for teh over side and apologised because she liked him so much he he )

 

[pickledseal]

Its conditional and it is very much restricted by dogmatic prinicple of the catholic church.

Not my experience working with Catholic sisters in Africa.
I can't remember the exact statistic but something like 40% of Mekele (where I worked) in N Ethiopia are educated in Catholic funded schools. Not bad when the Catholic population is about 0.01% of the city.
Additionally with the condom issue, the children were educated about safe and responsible sex (admittedly they told them that monogamous relationships were the ideal) and told places where they could get them for free if they needed them.

However, I am not naive and uneducated enough to see there are still some VERY serious problems. I think places in South America where abortions are totally outlawed creates very serious problems for example.

I also believe some of the teachings of the Church in the past have been absolutely outrageous.

I think we have to look at the strengths of the post-Vatican II Church and move on from some very dark days of the Churches past.

At the end of the day, the Church provide structure and teaching and guidance. Some people don't like that. I struggle with it. I see it as part of my journey :)

 

[osymandus]

Not my experience working with Catholic sisters in Africa.
I can't remember the exact statistic but something like 40% of Mekele (where I worked) in N Ethiopia are educated in Catholic funded schools. Not bad when the Catholic population is about 0.01% of the city.
Additionally with the condom issue, the children were educated about safe and responsible sex (admittedly they told them that monogamous relationships were the ideal) and told places where they could get them for free if they needed them.

However, I am not naive and uneducated enough to see there are still some VERY serious problems. I think places in South America where abortions are totally outlawed creates very serious problems for example.

I also believe some of the teachings of the Church in the past have been absolutely outrageous.

I think we have to look at the strengths of the post-Vatican II Church and move on from some very dark days of the Churches past.

At the end of the day, the Church provide structure and teaching and guidance. Some people don't like that. I struggle with it. I see it as part of my journey :)

Thats the exception to the rule then , as stated in that debate there are far more and as the offical line is contrary to that (in Rome itself its still so frowned apon and that's Europe !!)

Rephrase that its how they teach it !

 

[pickledseal]

I think it is easy to make sweeping generalisations :)

The Church holds up a somewhat impractical, old-fashioned teaching. I talk about this with the kids at school. For example, they still teach that sex should only happen within marriage with the intention of having children. Natural family planning is encouraged, meaning there is no need for artificial contraception or abortion. Now if the Church changed it's view on this, it would be the start of a decline (just like euthanasia - look at the Nazi's - they used to euthanase those not deemed useful in society, would we end up like that if it became legal?), and who knows where it would end up. The Church accepts that this teaching is a challenge, but it is one that Catholics should ultimately aim towards, using the sacraments of reconciliation and the advice and support of congregations and clergy.

I look at the Church of England, my biggest problem with them is their increasing 'grey' areas, confusion, and lack of firm decision making.

 

[Clinton Baptiste]

Is Stephen Fry a national treasure or a pompous, self important ****?

Massive gay **** who seems to be on every advert at the moment.

 

[osymandus]

I think it is easy to make sweeping generalisations :)

The Church holds up a somewhat impractical, old-fashioned teaching. I talk about this with the kids at school. For example, they still teach that sex should only happen within marriage with the intention of having children. Natural family planning is encouraged, meaning there is no need for artificial contraception or abortion. Now if the Church changed it's view on this, it would be the start of a decline (just like euthanasia - look at the Nazi's - they used to euthanase those not deemed useful in society, would we end up like that if it became legal?), and who knows where it would end up. The Church accepts that this teaching is a challenge, but it is one that Catholics should ultimately aim towards, using the sacraments of reconciliation and the advice and support of congregations and clergy.

I look at the Church of England, my biggest problem with them is their increasing 'grey' areas, confusion, and lack of firm decision making.

And thats teh problem , Original sin is population control . AS they also said in argument you fear the wraith of jehovah yet "his" supposed to love you with condition but in a state of fear . And the papulsie encourages this . Yes its very impracticable as the only natural contraception is either the wrong environment for the woman to get pregnant or natural disasters which kill the infants (or Tantric yoga that teaches men and women to control sexual fluids but thats a real no no in Christianity as your controlling life not god)

Just becuase someone says a thing is so and sticks dogmaticly to it dosnt make it right or infallible. Big up for the COE saying sorry we dont know everything , thast good . A problem i have with most of teh versions of teh followers of the Abraham faiths is god knows it all, but if it goes wrong thats the devil. Yet you look at Hinduism , Buddhism , Norse , Egyptians the Greeks , their god's are fallible they make mistakes do the "wrong" things shag the wrong people . And things change , and some times just sometimes the humans have to change or rescue them.

Deus est Hommo . Why would man be made in the image of god ?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Is Stephen Fry a national treasure or a pompous, self important ****?

I quite like him actually so I suppose national treasure but he is a pompous,self important, so and so too.
BTW did you know that he used to be The Guardian's techie expert and still tweets etc for them on an occasional basis?

 

[Mad Cyril]

When I was at SEEVIC in the late 80's/early 90's I used to have a weekend job at the kitchens of Nazareth house. The nuns were pretty friendly and I received a 1.5 litre bottle of Black Tower one Christmas which came in handy as an aperitif before a session down the Pink Toothbrush.

As a consequence I have more time for the Roman Catholic church than I do for Stephen Fry who I find to be a simpering ****.

I would like to see how far his bon mots would get him if he spilt a pint down my local.

 

[NZamba Legend]

I would like to see how far his bon mots would get him if he spilt a pint down my local.

Exactly, the only French thing in my boozer is the red Pierre Cardin roll neck that I sometimes wear on sundays if I'm partaking in the carvery of a lunchtime.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Additionally with the condom issue, the children were educated about safe and responsible sex (admittedly they told them that monogamous relationships were the ideal) and told places where they could get them for free if they needed them.

Instead of being advised that shagging everything that moves is the way to go? Shame on the Catholic Church.