The Rail Network

[Crabby Shrimper]

Now, this is something that's had me thinking for a while. I'd say it's pretty obvious that the current rail network isn't that great. Too expensive, too much overcrowding, lots of places isolated etc. So, what's the solution?

In the early 60s Beeching was appointed to look at the financial state of the railways. His now famous report closed around a third of stations, many miles of track, but was successful in that it saved millions of pounds. Looking back, was it wrong to regard the rail network in terms of money? Should we be looking at it less as an industry, and more as an infrastructure? Would an efficient, but loss making, railway pay for itself indirectly by increasing profitability (and taxability) of business?

I realise that this would almost certainly involve nationalising the rail network (something I'm usually totally against) but would that be justified in this case? We don't treat the roads as a profitable industry (well, the police seem to, but that's another debate) so should we with rail?

 

[MK Shrimper]

The ironic thing is that NR are looking at reversing a lot of Beching's closures (where possible). I've worked on East-West rail recently, looking reconnecting Cambridge - Oxford via MK and I know there is others in the pipeline.

I don't think this Government will nationalise, despite the mess of the WCML bid but it should be without a doubt. The tax payer will be forever more subsidising the TOC's which goes into the pockets of share holders and that's money that could be used to reduce your fares.

 

[Neil_F]

Interesting question. The fares on long distance rail travel are a total disgrace I think. I'm interested to know what the split is between leisure and business travel on rail routes. This is relevant when considering subsidising the rail network (which a re-nationalisation would obviously require to an even greater extent).

Is it fair that the tax paid by someone who walks to work on minimum wage subsidises the commuting cost of someone earnings £250k in London? I know there is already a subsidy but it would increase under nationalisation.

I also think it is too simplistic to say that operating profits would be recycled into fare reductions under nationalisation. Operating costs would inevitably rise under a single state operator and the taxpayer funding would eliminate any meaningful cost pressure.

I don't know enough about this to give much insight. I get the impression that no one really knows what would improve the current system without committing significant taxpayer funds that currently don't exist. I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of anyone who knows about this topic.

 

[MK Shrimper]

What cost pressure? The network is ran as a virtual monopoly. There is only one TOC operating on the route I need to get to work on.

 

[Crabby Shrimper]

Is it fair that the tax paid by someone who walks to work on minimum wage subsidises the commuting cost of someone earnings £250k in London?

To be fair, they're getting that back in the benefits they will use that are subsidised by the £250k earner (NHS, income support etc)

Back to the main question, you said about the split between leisure and business travel (which would be relevant regarding indirect financial benefits of a decent network) but don't forget freight too. On the minus side, an improved rail network could well mean less money coming in to the coffers through fuel duty (I've put this as a negative purely for the financial reasons, though it's also arguably a positive)

 

[Neil_F]

What cost pressure? The network is ran as a virtual monopoly. There is only one TOC operating on the route I need to get to work on.

There is in theory cost pressure when allocating the franchise. Again, I don't know too much about the process to be able to comment on how effective it is.

Given that mutliple companies tender I would assume that there is more cost pressure than having a single state operated company running the entire network without challenge. Monopolies, regardless of whether private or public, have limited cost pressure in the absence of competition. Empirical evidence demonstrates that their productivity is usually lower and their internal inflation rate higher than the rest of the general economy. I am basing my assumption on that evidence; a nationalised railway would increase the total cost base at a faster rate than the current system. Whether that increased cost is funded by fares or the taxpayer is secondary.

As I said previously, I am not familiar with the details. There may be an argument that total cost would fall under a nationalised system but I've not seen it and I'd struggle to believe it.

 

[MK Shrimper]

I could put you in touch with a man who knows it inside out if you like Neil!

 

[Jam_Man]

Train fares always have been a bug bear of mine. It costs me about £13 a day to drive to work and would cost me £21 to get a train. Added to that I would have to change twice it takes me about 20 minute longer by train, it just not worth me getting out of my car.

Id much rather get a train, but with the costs its just not worth it.

I used to go up to the Lakes a few times a year and the cost of getting there I could fly to both Dublin and Amsterdam for, even with the cheap deals on trainline.com. Makes no sense.

 

[Clinton Baptiste]

What annoys me and is the reason why so many people use cars and not trains is the sheer compexity of the ticketingsystem. Other parts of Europe you buy a ticket pay one price it gets you from A to B. Sounds simple. Over here, you have peak and off peak, super saver ,advance saver, advance single, advance return, day single, day return etc etc. There is value on some long distance journeys (for instance I have travelled to Devon and back for £35) but the system is just so lopsided and incomprehensible. Why is one journey £30 and the exact same journey an hour later £40? The trains are getting too crowded, there isnt enough monitoring of fare dodgers though I admit on the whole c2c in particular are very efficient.

 

[Uncle Leo]

Train fares always have been a bug bear of mine. It costs me about £13 a day to drive to work and would cost me £21 to get a train. Added to that I would have to change twice it takes me about 20 minute longer by train, it just not worth me getting out of my car.

Id much rather get a train, but with the costs its just not worth it.

I'm in a similar position; my bus/train/bus commute was costing me £75 a week. I now drive and am typically filling up the car (£60) once every nine or ten days. Worth noting that driving is a feasible option for me as my office isn't in the heart of London so traffic is annoying rather than abysmal.

I don't have a problem with public transport per se but the train companies don't seem to be doing a very good job of encouraging folk to use it when other options are available.

 

[MK Shrimper]

I'm in a similar position; my bus/train/bus commute was costing me £75 a week. I now drive and am typically filling up the car (£60) once every nine or ten days. Worth noting that driving is a feasible option for me as my office isn't in the heart of London so traffic is annoying rather than abysmal.

I don't have a problem with public transport per se but the train companies don't seem to be doing a very good job of encouraging folk to use it when other options are available.

It is a Goverment policy to try and disuade people to travel at peak times, hence why season tickets are ridiculously expensive. However that will never be admitted by any minister, TOC or senior member of NR.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Now, this is something that's had me thinking for a while. I'd say it's pretty obvious that the current rail network isn't that great. Too expensive, too much overcrowding, lots of places isolated etc. So, what's the solution?

Re-nationationalise the whole system.The railway network in the UK is a joke compared to the national rail systems that I know well in Spain and France.
It doesn't compare that well either, with railways that I've used on holiday in Germany,Poland,Russia,Austria,the Czech Republic and Hungary in recent years.

 

[londonblue]

Is it fair that the tax paid by someone who walks to work on minimum wage subsidises the commuting cost of someone earnings £250k in London? I know there is already a subsidy but it would increase under nationalisation.

Would anyone being paid minimum wage be paying tax?

Operating costs would inevitably rise under a single state operator and the taxpayer funding would eliminate any meaningful cost pressure.

I would expect there to also be some economies of scale...

I think there is an argument for re-nationalisation of the railways, and running the whole system as one. However, for that to happen I think the government (whoever is in power at the time) needs to ensure that the right people are running it. It would be so easy for the organisation to become bloated and inefficient as it probably was pre nationalisation. After all, that would only make things worse.

 

[Uncle Leo]

It is a Goverment policy to try and disuade people to travel at peak times, hence why season tickets are ridiculously expensive. However that will never be admitted by any minister, TOC or senior member of NR.

Integration with other form of public transport is an issue too. On weekday mornings, there is a bus that arrives at Hemel train station exactly a minute after a London train leaves. Genius.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Integration with other form of public transport is an issue too. On weekday mornings, there is a bus that arrives at Hemel train station exactly a minute after a London train leaves. Genius.

Yep, that's ideal for anyone getting off at Hemel.

 

[Uncle Leo]

Yep, that's ideal for anyone getting off at Hemel.

:smile:

Seriously though, I don't think I've ever seen anyone getting on that bus during morning rush hour (at that point, it's heading away from the town centre, where there are plenty of pound shops and businesses and towards a primarily residential area.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Integration with other form of public transport is an issue too. On weekday mornings, there is a bus that arrives at Hemel train station exactly a minute after a London train leaves. Genius.

You know reminds me of a presentation that a boss gave that showed the Swiss transport system. Buses/trains/trams all interlinked to within a few minutes in the major cities. We should have hid a bit more Nazi gold :whistling:

 

[Thorpe Groyney]

A bit closer to home. The 100 Lakeside to Chelmsford bus service is timed to miss the connection to Southend Victoria from Billericay by just the one minute as well.

 

[londonblue]

You know reminds me of a presentation that a boss gave that showed the Swiss transport system. Buses/trains/trams all interlinked to within a few minutes in the major cities. We should have hid a bit more Nazi gold :whistling:

Technically it wasn't Nazi gold the Swiss hid. It was Nazi victims' gold.

 

[Napster]

Technically it wasn't Nazi gold the Swiss hid. It was Nazi victims' gold.

They were nasty *******s those Nazis, weren't they? But I give you this about Mussolini, he made the trains run on time